07-07-2005 00:15									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Yes.

You are welcome to bring a few bagels.

	07-07-2005 00:21									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You are welcome to bring a few bagels.

With cream cheese?

	07-07-2005 01:00									#93
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Of course.

	07-07-2005 09:56									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Look, correct me if I'm wrong here but, since when is Canadian soceity ANYTHING like pre-civil war Russia?

You forgot that not only White Russians were there, but also foreign armies.

	07-07-2005 09:57									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You forgot that not only White Russians were there, but also foreign armies.

As I said, how does any country then compare to Canada now?

	07-07-2005 09:59									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear As I said, how does any country then compare to Canada now?

Suppose a peaceful communist revolution were to take place in Canada, you don't think the US would intervene?

They have intervened in much smaller countries much further from home.

	07-07-2005 10:07									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Suppose a peaceful communist revolution were to take place in Canada, you don't think the US would intervene? They have intervened in much smaller countries much further from home.

There is no such thing as a peaceful revolution anyways.

	07-07-2005 10:14									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Suppose a peaceful communist revolution were to take place in Canada, you don't think the US would intervene? They have intervened in much smaller countries much further from home.

Exactly why they wouldn't intervene - militarily - in Canada. Unless the government were overthrown, maybe.

	07-07-2005 10:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Somehow I highly doubt the majority of Capitalists are out to kill the Communists.

Wait until their property is confiscated. History shows that they get real mean. Don't forget there is lots of historical precedent to go by.

	07-07-2005 11:22									#100
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm still waiting to hear what the status of AQ and Hamas are in the US. I'm sure that sympathizers are having their rights to free speech respected.

Actually people who simply sympathize with Al Queda and Hamas have nothing done to them by the US government (except maybe a file on them). You know, like Ward Churchill, who isn't in jail.

If you supply them with money or assistance in carrying out their goals in the US, that ain't speech, so restricting that ain't restricting free speech.

The fact that the police aren't prosecuting people who simply say they want a violent revolution to overthrow the government means that they realize that the law is a silly anti-Free Speech provision that they shouldn't enforce (a police veto, if you will). If they act beyond speech, they will. It doesn't matter if it is technically against the law, de facto it isn't because the police think it's bollocks and an affront to free speech.

	07-07-2005 11:58									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually people who simply sympathize with Al Queda and Hamas have nothing done to them by the US government (except maybe a file on them). You know, like Ward Churchill, who isn't in jail. If you supply them with money or assistance in carrying out their goals in the US, that ain't speech, so restricting that ain't restricting free speech. The fact that the police aren't prosecuting people who simply say they want a violent revolution to overthrow the government means that they realize that the law is a silly anti-Free Speech provision that they shouldn't enforce (a police veto, if you will). If they act beyond speech, they will. It doesn't matter if it is technically against the law, de facto it isn't because the police think it's bollocks and an affront to free speech.

Really? I suppose they caught this guy with a bomb in his shoe then, yes?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/index.html

	07-07-2005 12:04									#102
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He was being sent to Syria for interrogation because the Administration suspected him of having links to Al Queda and was suspected of helping them plan attacks. They didn't think he simply symphathized with those groups... if they did that to every person who symphatized with Al Queda, a great deal more of the Muslims that fly into US cities would be shipped to Syria

And I wasn't aware that he was prosecuted under US law, In fact, I thought the Bush Administration sent him to Syria because there was nothing that could be done against him under the laws of the United States.

Very weak on your part (weaker than usual to boot), nye.

	07-07-2005 12:08									#103
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Oh, and btw, link from that link:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/nati...arar050421.html

quote: The documents released Thursday suggest senior Canadian officials failed to act to prevent Arar's deportation – and once he was in Syria, Canadian authorities appeared more interested in Arar's interrogation than his treatment.

Apparently the Canadians believed him to be a terrorist as well. Not excused, but saying he was shipped simply because he sympathized with Al Queda is clearly off the mark.

	07-07-2005 12:08									#104
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I suppose these guys must have been terrorists because...???

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/27/usdom11213.htm

quote: Scores of Muslim Men Jailed Without Charge Justice Department Misused Material Witness Law in Counterterrorism Efforts (New York, June 27, 2005)—Operating behind a wall of secrecy, the U.S. Department of Justice thrust scores of Muslim men living in the United States into a Kafkaesque world of indefinite detention without charge and baseless accusations of terrorist links, Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union said in a report released today. Following the September 11 attacks, the Justice Department held the 70 men—all but one Muslim—under a narrow federal law that permits the arrest and brief detention of “material witnesses” who have important information about a crime, if they might otherwise flee to avoid testifying before a grand jury or in court. Although federal officials suspected the men of involvement in terrorism, they held them as material witnesses, not criminal suspects. Almost half of the witnesses were never brought before a grand jury or court to testify. The U.S. government has apologized to 13 for wrongfully detaining them. Only a handful were ever charged with crimes related to terrorism. “These men were victims of a Justice Department that was willing to do an end run around the law,” said Jamie Fellner, director of Human Rights Watch’s U.S. Program. “Criminal suspects are treated better than these material witnesses were.” The 101-page report, “Witness to Abuse: Human Rights Abuses under the Material Witness Law since September 11,” documents how the Justice Department denied the witnesses fundamental due process safeguards. Many were not informed of the reason for their arrest, allowed immediate access to a lawyer, nor permitted to see the evidence used against them. The Justice Department evaded fundamental protections for the suspects and the legal requirements for arrested witnesses. Their court proceedings were conducted behind closed doors, and all the court documents were sealed. “Haste, incompetence and prejudice played a role in these detentions,” said Anjana Malhotra, the report’s author and Aryeh Neier fellow at Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union. “Muslim men were arrested for little more than attending the same mosque as a September 11 hijacker or owning a box-cutter.” ...

	07-07-2005 12:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He was being sent to Syria for interrogation because the Administration suspected him of having links to Al Queda and was suspected of helping them plan attacks. They didn't think he simply symphathized with those groups... if they did that to every person who symphatized with Al Queda, a great deal more of the Muslims that fly into US cities would be shipped to Syria And I wasn't aware that he was prosecuted under US law, In fact, I thought the Bush Administration sent him to Syria because there was nothing that could be done against him under the laws of the United States. Very weak on your part (weaker than usual to boot), nye.

Yeah, you're right. Nothing under US law to allow them to torture the guy either. That would be a good reason to ship the guy to Syria.

	07-07-2005 12:13									#106
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Oh, nye, trying as hard as you can to grasp at more straws .

quote: federal officials suspected the men of involvement in terrorism

The belief may have been mistaken, but I fail to see how you get that they were detained solely because they symphatized with Al Queda. If that was the 'actual' reason, then I'm surprised it was only 70 men they had in custody, because there some pretty decent sized groups of people who merely symphatize with Al Queda in the US.

To make any of your charges have any merit whatsoever, your numbers have to be close to a few thousand being detained simply because they sympathized with Al Queda or Hamas. Hell, the numbers of Muslims in the US who back Hamas openly may be in the thousands themselves.

	07-07-2005 12:16									#107
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I'm still curious where these laws that allow the government to stifle individuals who are simply exercising their free speech rights without engaging in violent action are. Where is this 'sedition' law that nye seems to be claiming the US has?

	07-07-2005 12:17									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, and btw, link from that link: http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/nati...arar050421.html quote: The documents released Thursday suggest senior Canadian officials failed to act to prevent Arar's deportation – and once he was in Syria, Canadian authorities appeared more interested in Arar's interrogation than his treatment. Apparently the Canadians believed him to be a terrorist as well. Not excused, but saying he was shipped simply because he sympathized with Al Queda is clearly off the mark.

That's right. There were people in Canada's security and intelligence communities who were interested in the 'terrorist' the US shipped of to Syria.

Should they have ignored him?

You might also note the Canadian government screaming bloody murder over the treatment of one of our citizens with zero evidence to go on.

	07-07-2005 12:17									#109
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, you're right. Nothing under US law to allow them to torture the guy either. That would be a good reason to ship the guy to Syria.

Indeed... another failing of the Bush Administration. Though it definetly seems that the US and Canadian governments suspected the man of terrorism, though they were incorrect.

	07-07-2005 12:21									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm still curious where these laws that allow the government to stifle individuals who are simply exercising their free speech rights without engaging in violent action are. Where is this 'sedition' law that nye seems to be claiming the US has?

You don't have your old sedition laws. You have new and improved ways of walking on people with flimsy excuses.

Incidently, you should read the section of the CC that I mentioned. It isn't what you might have in mind regarding Sedition Acts from your history.

It's pretty straightforward statement that advocating the violent overthrow of the Government of Canada (or a province) is a crime.

I find it very hard to believe you do not have some similar federal statute.

	07-07-2005 12:23									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, nye, trying as hard as you can to grasp at more straws . quote: federal officials suspected the men of involvement in terrorism The belief may have been mistaken, but I fail to see how you get that they were detained solely because they symphatized with Al Queda. If that was the 'actual' reason, then I'm surprised it was only 70 men they had in custody, because there some pretty decent sized groups of people who merely symphatize with Al Queda in the US. To make any of your charges have any merit whatsoever, your numbers have to be close to a few thousand being detained simply because they sympathized with Al Queda or Hamas. Hell, the numbers of Muslims in the US who back Hamas openly may be in the thousands themselves.

I'm going on a report written by your own citizens, who might be suspected of being familiar with the facts of at least some of the cases they are reporting on.

	07-07-2005 12:26									#112
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You don't have your old sedition laws. You have new and improved ways of walking on people with flimsy excuses.

Because you've sure proven that people who simply sympathize with Al Queda are rounded up and thrown in jails .

quote: It's pretty straightforward statement that advocating the violent overthrow of the Government of Canada (or a province) is a crime. I find it very hard to believe you do not have some similar federal statute.

Um... we have this thing called the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which prevents such a law to exist.

Simply speech advocating the overthrow of the US government cannot be outlawed under our Constitution.

Your sedition law is almost exactly what we had in the 50s, which was used to deal with Communists. That law isn't in existance anymore and even though the Supreme Court upheld it back then, the Court, as well as the society, has turned its back on that abhorrent era.

The closest thing is that it is illegal to actually threaten (instead of an idle threat) to kill the President. Then again, if you do that against any regular person, it's assault, so nothing too special with that except for the penalties.

	07-07-2005 12:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Indeed... another failing of the Bush Administration. Though it definetly seems that the US and Canadian governments suspected the man of terrorism, though they were incorrect.

So then, I am curious if this statement is accurate:

quote: Actually people who simply sympathize with Al Queda and Hamas have nothing done to them by the US government (except maybe a file on them).

Would that be all people, most people, or some people?

	07-07-2005 12:29									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... we have this thing called the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which prevents such a law to exist. Simply speech advocating the overthrow of the US government cannot be outlawed under our Constitution. The closest thing is that it is illegal to actually threaten (instead of an idle threat) to kill the President. Then again, if you do that against any regular person, it's assault, so nothing too special with that except for the penalties.

So then you admit that it is reasonable to limit expression under some limited circumstances.

Thank you.

Now we can argue about where the line should be.

	07-07-2005 12:36									#115
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quote: Would that be all people, most people, or some people?

As I've shown before, those who simply sympathize with Al Queda aren't cast in prisons. The people detained have been suspected of actual terrorist acts. If the government is incorrect it doesn't mean that the law is invalid. It's like saying people who don't kill anyone won't be charged with murder. If the government messes up and charges them with murder on a very rare occurence, that doesn't change the law.

quote: So then you admit that it is reasonable to limit expression under some limited circumstances.

Very, very, very, very limited. No more than is needed for a society to actually function. As countries around the world have existed without Canada's sedition law (and Canada itself has existed without enforcement of the same), it is too much.

It is only reasonable to limit free speech when not doing so would collapse the social order irrevocably (and I don't mean mere 'depravity' of society).

	07-07-2005 12:37									#116
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What does this say?

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/co...hactof1940.html

quote: Smith Act of 1940 The Alien Registration Act of 1940, usually called the Smith Act because the antisedition section was authored by Representative Howard W. Smith of Virginia, was adopted at 54 Statutes at Large 670-671 (1940). The Act has been amended several times and can now be found at 18 U.S. Code § 2385 (2000). § 2385. Advocating Overthrow of Government. Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof-- Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction. If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction. As used in this section, the terms "organizes" and "organize", with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

Is that accurate? Does that note mean that the statute is still active as of the year 2000?

	07-07-2005 12:39									#117
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Do I get to 'own' anything?

	07-07-2005 12:40									#118
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Incidently, you can only get 14 years in Canada.

	07-07-2005 12:42									#119
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quote: Is that accurate? Does that note mean that the statute is still active as of the year 2000?

Under the context of SCOTUS decisions (first under Dennis v. US, which has subsequently been narrowed) limiting such fines/imprisonment to "clear and present danger" against the US government, yes.

	07-07-2005 12:48									#120
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Joy. You have a Supreme Court to oversee the application of your laws. So do we.

I guess that means we're even.

Last comment striken as unneeded and bad natured.

Last edited by notyoueither on 07-07-2005 at 13:02