14-07-2005 20:12									#121
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 There was a link in your post?

Sure enough

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Civgaming - Builders Primer Early Game Again the games are almost exclusively won or lost by the strength of the early game.

Also had this link to a thread at Civgaming discussing SE choices

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Just going through some golden moldies over at cgn Someone asked about Pirates SE Choices Discussion Thread Including some Good Pirate Discussions

	14-07-2005 20:14									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Guys lets chill a bit-- no need for anyone to get worked up here-- lets all stick to content

Agreed. If I want to raise the level of rancor up a few notchces I visit OT. This OTOH is/was and IMO should always be a nuturing learning environment.

	14-07-2005 20:16									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe This OTOH is/was and IMO should always be a nuturing learning environment.

and i think it will stay that way. I don't think the mods have had to come in here much in the last few years

	14-07-2005 20:20									#124
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Are you saying there is a direct correlation of the depths the level of discourse descends into and the amount of mod participation?



Simple solution really.

	14-07-2005 20:20									#125
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No problem with me.
Im not saying anything insulting, at least I didn't intend to.

	14-07-2005 20:31									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Are you saying there is a direct correlation of the depths the level of discourse descends into and the amount of mod participation? Simple solution really.

I was thinking that mods not being around was an EFFECT of decent discourse but if you want to say that it is partially the CAUSE, I wouldn't dispute you.

	14-07-2005 20:34									#127
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Also I went to the community forum the other day-- I was amazed at the amount of modf activism in other forums. Someone got banned for calling a mod "clueless" . . . it was Asher, a known troller, but still . . .

For AC forums I'm not even sure there is a mod assigned . . . I see Ming most often but only if someone complains about something

	14-07-2005 20:36									#128
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quote: For AC forums I'm not even sure there is a mod assigned

Yes, that position seems vacant atm.
But we're doing well anyway.
I think this is a little warm place where you can do some flaming and not be punished..

	14-07-2005 20:58									#129
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Yes, that position seems vacant atm. But we're doing well anyway.

I think that they just feel they don't need one and experience bears that out. If they wanted one, there are lots of long-term reasonable posters that they could draft pretty quickly

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin I think this is a little warm place where you can do some flaming and not be punished..

Very mild-- I don't want that crap in here-- If you want that type of posting go to OT where its par for the course until it goes too far and a mod gets involved

	14-07-2005 21:02									#130
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quote: Very mild-- I don't want that crap in here-- If you want that type of posting go to OT where its par for the course until it goes too far and a mod gets involved

Are you all so screwed up here?

While you admitted (did you?) that you had fun in that Blockhead's thread, now you call it crap.

Anyways, just was just a joke, hence the smiley, but nevermind.

	14-07-2005 21:38									#131
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quote: I was quick enough He was asking what the A: 43 | D: 99 | M: 21 | HP: 13 values mean and how they're derived.

DAMMIT !

	15-07-2005 00:02									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Sure enough Also had this link to a thread at Civgaming discussing SE choices

Oooh, that one. I read the civgaming guides several times already. I thought you were referring to something else.

	15-07-2005 00:44									#133
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For most factions I Like free market untill I have completed my early beeline, then I switch to planned to build and grow. Later after most early facilities and SPs are in and base size is up, and I am not at war, I like to switch back to FM for a burst of research and to generate the first eco-pop, and switch back to planned to build Tree farms/hybrid forest and more SPs, and then go green.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 15-07-2005 at 00:50

	15-07-2005 01:05									#134
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Are you all so screwed up here? While you admitted (did you?) that you had fun in that Blockhead's thread, now you call it crap. Anyways, just was just a joke, hence the smiley, but nevermind.

Nope-- my fun in the blockhead thread was because he was so far over the top to be ridiculous-- so I found it funny-- I far prefer though that most threads don't go that way

	15-07-2005 01:35									#135
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 Oooh, that one. I read the civgaming guides several times already. I thought you were referring to something else.

Fair enough. After reading this tho', you still advocate planned over FM in the early game, even for builder factions?

I'ld be interested to understand further the rationale as most of the rationale you've used to date talk to mid game gambits.

Are you not ICS'sing freely enough?

Your previous mentions of going on the offensive circa Impact weapons/Doctrine:mobility strikes me mightily of momentum gambits as opposed to builder or even hybrid approach.

Granted thats a fun way to do a game and might I suggest a try or two using land transports and 4-1-1 infantry (allows fast build of an army) but it does not fit the builder motif.

	15-07-2005 02:24									#136
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Actually, I don't really see why military campaigns are that difficult with free market...

Let's say that I drop 5 units inside the enemies territory, and 2 of them die to enemy bombers or enemy speeders or whatever...that's 3 units to use to attack a base. If they succeed in taking the base, then they are inside your territory, in which case the home bases only have drones for one turn.

Drones for only one turn doesn't really do anything...yeah, you may lose some ECs and lab points, but you're doing free market, so who cares...also, the drones can't destroy any facilities, and your base can't defect to another faction...

Another thing to consider is interceptors...they don't cause pacifism, but go just as far as bombers...

True, they get -50% for ground strikes, but if they have missiles or chaos guns, most likely then the highest armor your enemy will have is plasma steel, in which case the odds are almost 1 to 1...if you have high morale interceptors, they can be very good bombers, especially for speeders or units left out of bases...

When I used to play free market with the University, I rarely had problems with pacifist drones, and I lead huge military campaigns, even ones including air units and missiles...if you build 10 missiles all on the same turn, and use them all on that turn on enemy units, then you don't have a problem with pacifism...

The key is skill, if you have skill, free market is not at all a problem...

	15-07-2005 05:33									#137
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Shush, you don't play on Transcend.

Also, missiles?

	15-07-2005 06:53									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro Shush, you don't play on Transcend. Also, missiles?

Ah, sorry, but I do play on Transcend...I have for almost 2 years...there are those skilled with using free market, and those who aren't...I know what category I fall in, how about you, Senethro?

As far as missiles, if you coordinate industry using "unorthodox" means, you can manage to produce 2, 3, 5, 10, or however many missiles you want all on the same turn...use them the next turn on the enemy, and pacifism isn't a problem...if I happened to have enough energy, I could do the same thing with PBs, but I do planned economy now and don't build PBs, so that's not a problem...

Successful military campaigns can be done with free market, on Transcend, and yes, with missiles...and without punishment spheres...

You just have to know what you are doing...

	15-07-2005 11:11									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Fair enough. After reading this tho', you still advocate planned over FM in the early game, even for builder factions? I'ld be interested to understand further the rationale as most of the rationale you've used to date talk to mid game gambits. Are you not ICS'sing freely enough? Your previous mentions of going on the offensive circa Impact weapons/Doctrine:mobility strikes me mightily of momentum gambits as opposed to builder or even hybrid approach. Granted thats a fun way to do a game and might I suggest a try or two using land transports and 4-1-1 infantry (allows fast build of an army) but it does not fit the builder motif.

Well, most of my games go the following:

1) Land, explore, build 2nd base, build 2nd-4th scout patrol.
2) Get 3rd base/former up and running. Recycling tanks/Rec commons should be a priority.
3) Any new base onwards has the following build order: Recycling Tanks, Rec Commons (if needed) then Former, then a military unit. Aim for about 8 cities or so.
4) Creche should be coming around soon, but I don't usually build those yet since I don't want to explode in pop just yet and I want to keep the cities at around 4 pop or so. Formers should be building Forests anywhere that isn't rolling to improve minerals output and give you a bit of energy. Any idle city should be building a military unit since tech would most likely stagnate by this route, but you should have the Impactor from trading with other factions. (Actually, the key to this strategy is to trade tech aggressively with other factions. The forests give you enough energy to get you an early boost in EC and tech, and providing the minerals for an invasion at the same time.)
5) I'm missing a bunch of steps here and I can't remember my exact order because I had a long day at work and it's past midnight now. Planned/Democracy should be done right away, if possible. If you think you have time, build an SP such as Weather Paradigm.
6) Hit the closest or strongest neighbour you have. If the opponent is tough, your cities should be building military units. If not, then get half your cities to start building Network nodes/Energy Banks/Creches or SPs. By the time you finish off that faction (or beat them into a submission pact ), you should be fairly set in your home bases. Your formers in the meantime should have been building Forests at home on any square that doesn't roll. If it's rainy, don't bother doing anything except build roads on them because I can't really take advantage of them until I get the Research Hospotal tech.

And that's all that I can think of right now. Sorry if this makes no sense right now.. I just got home from work and I'm really tired. A lot of people decided to call in "sick" since it was a nice day outside so there was basically only three people stocking shelves. That's working at a grocery store for you.

	15-07-2005 12:45									#140
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You might find your early game speeds up significantly cal if you just skip building any military units whatsoever until you're actually either under threat of attack, or are making attack plans.

	15-07-2005 15:57									#141
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A solid builder game emphasises formers, colony pods, and the path to Industrial Automation over creches, net nodes, e-banks, military units, and weapon techs.

	15-07-2005 20:55									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory A solid builder game emphasises formers, colony pods, and the path to Industrial Automation over creches, net nodes, e-banks, military units, and weapon techs.

	15-07-2005 20:59									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory A solid builder game emphasises formers, colony pods, and the path to Industrial Automation over creches, net nodes, e-banks, military units, and weapon techs.

It's perfectly possible to popboom without crawlers.

	15-07-2005 21:23									#144
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Certainly, but I place a higher priority on formers and colony pods than building creches. In general, creches are the third facility I put up, after rec commons and rec tanks. None of the items listed on the right of my post are bad, just not as important early on.

Note also that building creches and teching for Industrial Automation aren't exclusive. The mod 3 rule tends to throw off a beeline, and EthCalc just has one prereq, a very useful tech. Building formers/colony pods vs creches is what Iaddressed.

	15-07-2005 21:37									#145
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Ah yes I see. Formers and colony pods are no doubt the most important.

	15-07-2005 21:37									#146
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I think the point Chaos Theory and others (including myself) are trying to say is that the key to unlocking the advantages of early FM depend greatly on the amount of base squares one can have generating income.

To that end a regimine that eliminates not as useful builds of creche or military units in favor instead towards support of formers and colony pods (ideally without taking support hits) allows an ICS expansion paradigm. Ideally pods should be pumping out as soon as a base clocks over to size 2. Move them out via those dreaded roads ( ) and get them set down pronto. If bases are achieving pops of 4 or there abouts you're likely not having enough colony pods in the build queue. This expansion paradigm lasts well until at least Ind Auto IMO.

The key is as you are unwilling to expand vertically in the beginning, to instead expand as rapidly as possible horizontally. By ICSing the proportion of high energy base squares @ 4+ energy should be at all time greater than 50% of squares worked in the early game.

Vel called it thin expansion and it entails a certain amount of risk as you are naked or nearly so when it comes to defense against marauding natives and or other factions.

But its a risk reward scenario. The greater the risk the greater the potential reward.

	15-07-2005 21:59									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic You might find your early game speeds up significantly cal if you just skip building any military units whatsoever until you're actually either under threat of attack, or are making attack plans.

But that's the thing: I'm already making attack plans right when I see my neighbours.

On the other hand, I'm not too worried about maximizing early game speed that much. I generally hit base limit pretty early, and I pick up any missed techs later with probe teams or trading and/or get more bases by conquering other factions.

	15-07-2005 22:01									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Certainly, but I place a higher priority on formers and colony pods than building creches. In general, creches are the third facility I put up, after rec commons and rec tanks. None of the items listed on the right of my post are bad, just not as important early on. Note also that building creches and teching for Industrial Automation aren't exclusive. The mod 3 rule tends to throw off a beeline, and EthCalc just has one prereq, a very useful tech. Building formers/colony pods vs creches is what Iaddressed.

I pretty much agree with this post. Creches aren't really needed until later (ie. when you're actually trying for larger base sizes).

	15-07-2005 22:04									#149
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I don't believe that the risk in "thin" expansion is so great. Sacraficing one or two cities production to produce a best offense rover can be incredibly useful. Sometimes it's only a 1-1-2, but often times, I'll have popped Applied Physics and have a 2-1-2. Either of those two will do fairly well against early Rovers, and provide me a reasonable defense.
Early on, a few of those units can do a lot to stop mind worms, and also prevent an agressor from deciding to attack (especially if you store them just outside a city, so they can't be seen on your garrison screen if they've infiltrated).
Thin expansion will also give you a few formers on the frontier of your territory, because your frontier is almost always expanding. While formers aren't the best defense (and you lose a bit on the risk/reward principal), they provide a bit of scouting. Those into vertical expansion will have formers on the interior of their territories for the bulk of the game, therfore will have less an idea of an impending invasion until it is too late and their core cities (their only cities) are at risk of being overrun. Meanwhile, I can afford the loss of my frontier cities, while my interior cities begin cranking out units for war. I have the option of building a wall of scout defenders to slow down units on the path to my core, or if necessary sacrafice a former or two to prevent a deep wedge into my core cities. Under FM, an early defensive war is entirely feasible, since I will likely retake any lost cities, and therefore end turns with my units in "home" territory.

	15-07-2005 22:13									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I think the point Chaos Theory and others (including myself) are trying to say is that the key to unlocking the advantages of early FM depend greatly on the amount of base squares one can have generating income. To that end a regimine that eliminates not as useful builds of creche or military units in favor instead towards support of formers and colony pods (ideally without taking support hits) allows an ICS expansion paradigm. Ideally pods should be pumping out as soon as a base clocks over to size 2. Move them out via those dreaded roads ( ) and get them set down pronto. If bases are achieving pops of 4 or there abouts you're likely not having enough colony pods in the build queue. This expansion paradigm lasts well until at least Ind Auto IMO. The key is as you are unwilling to expand vertically in the beginning, to instead expand as rapidly as possible horizontally. By ICSing the proportion of high energy base squares @ 4+ energy should be at all time greater than 50% of squares worked in the early game. Vel called it thin expansion and it entails a certain amount of risk as you are naked or nearly so when it comes to defense against marauding natives and or other factions. But its a risk reward scenario. The greater the risk the greater the potential reward.

(Who were you addressing in this post? )

Anyhow, the advantages of FM is certainly undeniable under ICS. In fact, quick tech bee-lining is probably one of the more obvious advantages because of the high energy of the base squares.

I guess (for my playstyle anyhow) my approach is to simply slow down my horizontal expansion (ie. number of bases) in favor of a larger starting military. The conquered bases, then, are in effect like the bases I would have built myself had I not gone to war in the first place. Any probe teams that I may have would be to steal tech that I didn't get before.