10-07-2005 13:00									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus I didnt say FM factions were aggressive, later in the game they can be, but i said its usually planned/green who can wage all out war easier.

I didn't say that FM factions were aggressive either, I just said that FM wasn't as useful if aggressive. It's golden if you sit and wait while you build, but I can see where it would suck badly if you were on the attack.

When it's time for me to move out, I go green. Simply to get rid of FM's military hits. I no longer need anything at all from either planned or green at that point (pop boom? who needs it if you have Cloning Vats?) , I just need to get rid of the military hits.

	10-07-2005 13:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 Actually, I'm mostly a builder when possible.

Then go Free Market and Wealth. Hope that no one bothers you while you build, but if they do, form your army by using probe teams.

Number one rule that I have to keep reminding myself over and over again when playing a builder - spend the money. Never, ever, accumulate credits, because the only advantage to Free Market/Wealth is the strong infrastructure you can build, which gains you massive research and even more cash.

But only if you spend the money. As fast as you can make it.

OK, the cash has some value if attacked and IF you have probe teams. But that's easily factered in if it happens.

	10-07-2005 13:57									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus The easiest way to really bring FM crashing down to earth would be to have the pacifist drones appear at a random base rather then their home base. This would really force some problems such as a must SE switch in times of war and only the tiniest possible standing army allowed giving opponents a massive chance to strike and conquer before retaliation. It seems rather daft that the drones only get annoyed at the prospect of troops from their own base fighting, its like people from x city not really caring that forces from another city in their own country are bombing somewhere in the world.

Nah, the size of the DEFENSIVE army isn't affected by FM at all, except for air units.

FM only hurts when I decide to move out or build air units.

	10-07-2005 15:07									#64
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quote: I didn't say that FM factions were aggressive either, I just said that FM wasn't as useful if aggressive. It's golden if you sit and wait while you build, but I can see where it would suck badly if you were on the attack.

Why'd you pick out what i said then ? I said planned/green were normally aggressive hence logic FM is for the laid back builder.

quote: army allowed giving opponents a massive chance to strike and conquer before retaliation.

Again you're misreading, the FM faction will not have a standing army thus counter attack is difficult. He can have as many defensive units as he likes (i know they don't create drones), the advantage normally lies with the attacker.

	10-07-2005 16:36									#65
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I didn't pick you out, I simply replied to posts that interested me.

	10-07-2005 17:57									#66
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I voted banana. It really depends on circumstances. Often Free Market is not a good choice cause of planet rating and low police.

	10-07-2005 20:57									#67
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 And to make it clear, I'm not bashing FM or am I anti-FM. All I'm trying to do is provide a fair assessment of FM in contrast to the "pro-FM" posts and provide a somewhat detailed few of why FM has its pitfalls.

quote: Originally posted by cal_01 So in summary (tl,dr for the ones that didn't want to read all this): 1. FM is inherently weaker in all stages of the game compared to other SE choices, even in peace-time. 2. FM is not a proactive SE choice, and will ultimately hurt your game. 3. You can't effective wars with FM.

I'm really having problems reconciling these two statements, Cal. Did someone else log in as you at one point in this thread?

	11-07-2005 10:50									#68
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron I'm really having problems reconciling these two statements, Cal. Did someone else log in as you at one point in this thread?

I don't see how those are anti-FM or FM bashing. There's a difference between being critical and... being insulting.

edit: And please, do not be condescending towards me when I have not done the same to you.

	11-07-2005 11:01									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tommar Then go Free Market and Wealth. Hope that no one bothers you while you build, but if they do, form your army by using probe teams. Number one rule that I have to keep reminding myself over and over again when playing a builder - spend the money. Never, ever, accumulate credits, because the only advantage to Free Market/Wealth is the strong infrastructure you can build, which gains you massive research and even more cash. But only if you spend the money. As fast as you can make it. OK, the cash has some value if attacked and IF you have probe teams. But that's easily factered in if it happens.

I would point to Lazerus's post for certain points in reply to this post.

And, forming an army with probe teams, while certainly viable, is certainly less efficient than having a standing army in the first place. Furthermore, relying on probe teams isn't good in certain matchups (Miriam Fundie for example) nor are they completely dependable. At least with Planned, I can have 30+ Needlejets/Copters spread around multiple cities (whereas you need a city(s) with a PS and enough minerals to handle that many units and not hurt your overal labs rating) and any number of Conventional Missiles (in addition to Rovers etc) in my arsenal.

And in my Planned/Wealth (or Knowledge in some cases.. or maybe Green ), I usually have sufficient credits to sustain a builder playstyle. Having the pop-boom with Demo/Planned/Creche is definitely a nice advantage that I enjoy with builder, and the extra 10% minerals is great too. Plus, there's enough of a police rating for at least one 2xPolice unit.

	11-07-2005 11:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Oh yeah, since there's a high concentration of superFMers here, I'll ask a question: Under FM in the early game, how do you deal with drones after you've crossed the bureaucracy limit, and bases already have their first citizen as a drone? (Edit: And you can't use the easy way out of building the HGP or PTS)

As Uni, I tend to complete the VW between 2125 and 2130, so I rarely even have to think about it. If I can't get it, or I'm not playing Uni, as was said earlier, just make Rec Commons a priority. By this point, you've likely already got enough credits to rush build a Rec. Commons every turn (Assuming 10 minerals of production already completed on each Rec. Commons of course), so you won't be hindered too much.

	12-07-2005 03:07									#71
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Hmm. But Rec Commons only take out a few drones. What about the rest of them, especially in larger city sizes?

edit: Except for using Holo Theatres and PS. :P

	12-07-2005 03:29									#72
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With RC and VW I rarely has any drone riots except the period between cloning vats and Eudamonia, and after that - well, who cares

Maybe I don't have trouble since I prefer Demo/Plan/Wealth

	12-07-2005 03:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 Hmm. But Rec Commons only take out a few drones. What about the rest of them, especially in larger city sizes? edit: Except for using Holo Theatres and PS. :P

Well, avoid large cities for a while, favoring horizontal expansion. If needed, allocate a doctor when you reach size 3, and if you have enough bureaucracy, use two doctors at size 4. However, with most factions, you shouldn't spend much time with many cities at size 4 - you should pop boom at least as far as size 5, when you can use productive specialists after the two citizens contented by a rec commons. Of course, the HGP, PTS, VW, and Lal's talents each would allow some additional drone control. If drones are out of hand under FM, switching to Planned for a while is entirely reasonable, since 4 citizens under Planned are more productive than 2 citizens under FM.

	12-07-2005 04:00									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Well, avoid large cities for a while, favoring horizontal expansion. If needed, allocate a doctor when you reach size 3, and if you have enough bureaucracy, use two doctors at size 4. However, with most factions, you shouldn't spend much time with many cities at size 4 - you should pop boom at least as far as size 5, when you can use productive specialists after the two citizens contented by a rec commons. Of course, the HGP, PTS, VW, and Lal's talents each would allow some additional drone control. If drones are out of hand under FM, switching to Planned for a while is entirely reasonable, since 4 citizens under Planned are more productive than 2 citizens under FM.

I was under the presumption that a typical FM player would drop to Green instead of Planned if the drones got out of control..?

As for as expansion goes, I like to do both horizontal and vertical expansions simutaneously -- which is why I like Planned since it gives me the flexibility to build both facilities and population growth at the same time. That, and I'm a huge minerals fan.

Speaking of which, here's something for both FM and Planned players: would you favor WP first over drone-controlling SPs (such as HGP and VW) as the first SP? I tend to go WP first so I can build forests everywhere and help my minerals production.

	12-07-2005 04:09									#75
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WP for certain, but mostly to improve terraforming, secondly to get land raising ability.

	12-07-2005 04:21									#76
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Depending on which techs you have, Green may not be an option. Planned will be an option.

The WP is very, very nice, and I sometimes would go for it over drone control, but I wouldn't use it just to plant trees faster - I'd spam condensors and boreholes across my continent. Boreholes aren't useful until Ecological Engineering, but condensors are useful immediately, and are perfect for crawlers.

Getting the HGP is like playing on a lower difficulty level, and permits wars under FM, enables GA pop-booming even with significant bureaucracy, and ensures that size 1 bases won't riot for anything less than pacifism. When suffering from 2 pacifism drones, a city with 1 worker will always be in riots, since even if he's a talent, the two pacifism drones will downgrade him to a drone. Having the HGP upgrades that drone back to a citizen.

The PTS is like an early pop boom, followed by a tremendous incentive for ICS. Though it's more expensive at 30 rows, it's extremely appealing.

The VW isn't that great for non-Uni factions, since net nodes are somewhat expensive.

The Command Nexus is nice to have, but isn't worth giving up another SP.

The Empath Guild is usually disabled in PBEMs, but is quite powerful if you can build it.

The Merchant Exchange doesn't help much until the era of Environmental Economics, so it's hard to justify building.

	12-07-2005 12:51									#77
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 Speaking of which, here's something for both FM and Planned players: would you favor WP first over drone-controlling SPs (such as HGP and VW) as the first SP? I tend to go WP first so I can build forests everywhere and help my minerals production.

It depends on the faction. I almost always go for either the HGP or the WP first. If I'm playing one of the factions that can only pop boom with a GA then HGP is the priority, as it can be very difficult to GA without it. Otherwise the WP has a lot going for it, namely the forming discount and the ability to do just about any forming you like in the early game.

Btw, I'm a former Planned afficianado who has accepted the fact that in most cases Planned simply cannot keep up with FM in the early game. Later on it matters a lot less, particularly if you use specialists extensively. But that base tile energy in the early game gets you to crawlers so fast that your mineral production shoots up well past what you can get in Planned. Even playing the Uni on Transcend the drones just don't cause me nearly as much energy to deal with as the margin between what FM and Planned produce.

	12-07-2005 13:05									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Depending on which techs you have, Green may not be an option. Planned will be an option. The WP is very, very nice, and I sometimes would go for it over drone control, but I wouldn't use it just to plant trees faster - I'd spam condensors and boreholes across my continent. Boreholes aren't useful until Ecological Engineering, but condensors are useful immediately, and are perfect for crawlers. Getting the HGP is like playing on a lower difficulty level, and permits wars under FM, enables GA pop-booming even with significant bureaucracy, and ensures that size 1 bases won't riot for anything less than pacifism. When suffering from 2 pacifism drones, a city with 1 worker will always be in riots, since even if he's a talent, the two pacifism drones will downgrade him to a drone. Having the HGP upgrades that drone back to a citizen. The PTS is like an early pop boom, followed by a tremendous incentive for ICS. Though it's more expensive at 30 rows, it's extremely appealing. The VW isn't that great for non-Uni factions, since net nodes are somewhat expensive. The Command Nexus is nice to have, but isn't worth giving up another SP. The Empath Guild is usually disabled in PBEMs, but is quite powerful if you can build it. The Merchant Exchange doesn't help much until the era of Environmental Economics, so it's hard to justify building.

Righto on the Borehole/Condensor spamming. However, it takes too many terraformers in multiple teams to spam Boreholes at a reasonable rate, so I typically just go Forest/Condensors if I feel the base needs condensors. However, I typically stick to forests because it's a balanced terraforming choice. And TF/HF make them even more delicious!

If I do build Boreholes though, it would be later in the game when I have my main facilities up and have spare terraformers. I usually pick an open field and dot it with Boreholes and crawlers.

As for CN, I do agree that it's pretty useless most of the time. However, if I'm going for an aggressive game (and I have the minerals/crawlers to do it), I typically snap it up. I remember overrunning two factions with Scout Patrols (I could've built something else, but these guys were cheap :P) using Miriam and it was pretty much overkill once I got the CN too.

	12-07-2005 13:45									#79
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 I would point to Lazerus's post for certain points in reply to this post. And, forming an army with probe teams, while certainly viable, is certainly less efficient than having a standing army in the first place. Furthermore, relying on probe teams isn't good in certain matchups (Miriam Fundie for example) nor are they completely dependable. At least with Planned, I can have 30+ Needlejets/Copters spread around multiple cities (whereas you need a city(s) with a PS and enough minerals to handle that many units and not hurt your overal labs rating) and any number of Conventional Missiles (in addition to Rovers etc) in my arsenal. And in my Planned/Wealth (or Knowledge in some cases.. or maybe Green ), I usually have sufficient credits to sustain a builder playstyle. Having the pop-boom with Demo/Planned/Creche is definitely a nice advantage that I enjoy with builder, and the extra 10% minerals is great too. Plus, there's enough of a police rating for at least one 2xPolice unit.

Um, no. I'm talking about early game. By the time I reach tech level to have copters, it's all over for them. My infrastructure is pretty solidly built long before that.

In the early game, if you build an army rather than infrastructure, you're not playing builder style. They are mutually exclusive (in the early game).

Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's one of the nice things about SMAC. Building an army early is quite uber for an aggressive faction. But it's not the way to play a builder type faction. A builder, by definition, in my book, builds base facilities as a priority, not an army. The only way to defend under those circumstances is probe teams, and to buy factions like the Believers off to buy you time. (which is again why I say "Spend the money" If you don't have much, the extortionists don't ask for much, but will be bought off nevertheless.)

Early game vs. late game is around Superstring and at least 10 bases in my book. I won't move out until I have Hunter-Seeker, but I will start building an army once I have Superstring, if under attack.

BTW, have you beat Transcend mode in single player with your tactics? I have with Free Market/Wealth enough times that it's boring. (I switch to Green/Knowledge when I decide to move out.) I might try Planned for something different (I tried Civ3 recently and recoiled in horror. )

If you would point to Lazarus' post, do it. (i.e., provide a link, or better yet, quote.) I scrolled back a bit, but have no idea what you were referring to.

His last post to me seemed to take me to task for picking on him, even though it sounds like we agree.

quote: Why'd you pick out what i said then ? I said planned/green were normally aggressive hence logic FM is for the laid back builder.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

	12-07-2005 15:17									#80
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Funny to see such a hot debate on things which seem obvious to me..

	12-07-2005 16:16									#81
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Funny to see such a hot debate on things which seem obvious to me..

Explain.

Yeah, I know you're a Free Marketeer like I am, but your post has no informational content.

	12-07-2005 19:54									#82
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The informational content has been posted in link form in Vel's compendium and my primer.

Realistically the arguements to advance planned over FM depends greatly on proximity to nearest neighbor/threat. In a no threatening arrangement FM beats the pants off planned in the early game.

Early game = Pre restriction lifting

Reason is that it allows so much energy from the base squares (you need to ICs to take full advantage) that you power through the early tech at a rate that would take you decades longer in planned. The lack of populational power is a mere few turns as a Demo/planned/creche boom or Demo/creche/golden age boom later on.

Seriously the elder statesman of this board have long thought this through and proven it 19 ways to Sunday. Sorry not trying to be condescending here but it is almost a given, save the rarities wherein a player garners scads of AA to offset the technological gap a FM player otherwise would generate, that a properly run FM early game transitioning into a period of Planned for pop boom purposes and then an extended run of green (as mid to late game green outperforms FM in raw energy output and flexibility to slam it all to econ or labs).

But what would I know? I haven't played in about 9 months. Maybe I need to install it on my laptop for my next business trip.

	12-07-2005 20:54									#83
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quote: Explain.

Obvious things don't need explanation..

But seriously as Ogie said:

quote: Seriously the elder statesman of this board have long thought this through and proven it 19 ways to Sunday.

Im in a stage of knowledge of SMACX where the answers on questions like this are obvious to me.

And actually I've been in such a stage since I read all the info available at Vel's guide and SMAC Academy and tried it all out.

Advice is to do the same and not waste too much words in proving something that the expierence could later prove you as incorrect.


* binTravkin recalls nostalgically those ol' good times and flamey threads..

	12-07-2005 21:29									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Tommar Um, no. I'm talking about early game. By the time I reach tech level to have copters, it's all over for them. My infrastructure is pretty solidly built long before that. In the early game, if you build an army rather than infrastructure, you're not playing builder style. They are mutually exclusive (in the early game). Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's one of the nice things about SMAC. Building an army early is quite uber for an aggressive faction. But it's not the way to play a builder type faction. A builder, by definition, in my book, builds base facilities as a priority, not an army. The only way to defend under those circumstances is probe teams, and to buy factions like the Believers off to buy you time. (which is again why I say "Spend the money" If you don't have much, the extortionists don't ask for much, but will be bought off nevertheless.) Early game vs. late game is around Superstring and at least 10 bases in my book. I won't move out until I have Hunter-Seeker, but I will start building an army once I have Superstring, if under attack. BTW, have you beat Transcend mode in single player with your tactics? I have with Free Market/Wealth enough times that it's boring. (I switch to Green/Knowledge when I decide to move out.) I might try Planned for something different (I tried Civ3 recently and recoiled in horror. ) If you would point to Lazarus' post, do it. (i.e., provide a link, or better yet, quote.) I scrolled back a bit, but have no idea what you were referring to. His last post to me seemed to take me to task for picking on him, even though it sounds like we agree. Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

Sorry. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...637#post3905637 and the reference to the standing army.

Well, I guess I'm more of a half-builder than a full-out builder. To tell you the truth, I'm probably more of a hybrid player than anything else, but my strategies/play-style hover closer to builder. And I tend to move out once I get the Particle Impactor and Mobility.

And yeah, I've beaten transcend before, but the AI gets kind of twinky in that difficulty so I don't like playing in it too much. But then again, the AI tends to lag in tech no matter which faction it is so...

If I were to further summarize my playstyle it would be:

a) Build up facilities moderately (quasi-ICS, forests for early minerals, and get up to base limit... and one SP if possible, most of the time no), and check up on nearest factions.
b) Get to Particle Impactor/Mobility. Check the nearest factions and see if I can wage a war with my strongest neighbour.
c) If yes, build army and wipe out enemy. If not, wait until SFF and Missile Launchers (6).
d) Continue builder style, and get one or two critical SPs. (For some reason, the AI puts its SPs in the weirdest places so their production rate is so slow. )

	12-07-2005 23:18									#85
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quote: quote: Why'd you pick out what i said then ? I said planned/green were normally aggressive hence logic FM is for the laid back builder. Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

just your first reply using me as a quote seemed to imply that i'd said FM was for aggressive factions, so i clarified that planned/green was more to an aggressive factions style.

	12-07-2005 23:20									#86
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quote: * binTravkin recalls nostalgically those ol' good times and flamey threads..

roads are useless now stfu noob

	12-07-2005 23:27									#87
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quote: At least with Planned, I can have 30+ Needlejets/Copters spread around multiple cities (whereas you need a city(s) with a PS and enough minerals to handle that many units and not hurt your overal labs rating) and any number of Conventional Missiles (in addition to Rovers etc) in my arsenal.

The main downside is that while he's building them he isn't increasing economy or labs, a large ICS planned player can though. Also just 30 ? aim for 200, it makes diplomacy easier

	12-07-2005 23:37									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus roads are useless now stfu noob

that one was most fun

	12-07-2005 23:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe But what would I know?

LOTs and lots and lots. I learned a lot from OO over the years. . .

Early FM rocks.

Exceptions have been mentioned and 1 I could add is situations where you will produce up to energy restrictions in almost all of your worked tiles anyway. Lets say your first 4 bases were going in the uranium flats or all worked tiles would be on forest anyway. . .. then the only benefit of FM is the greater base tile production ( I assume zero commerce at this stage) and I believe you would come out a little ahead by staying in planned for a while with growth, industry and better drone control. These situations are rare and as soon as you start working tiles that can't produce energy to restriction levels without FM, the preference again starts back toward FM.

	13-07-2005 05:00									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus roads are useless now stfu noob

OMG, I LOVED that guy! What was his name again?