 |
| |
|
|
Pekka
|
 |
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
|
|
What a bunch of cry babies. OF COURSE it's not documentary. But it's pretty accurate to what we think happened. OF COURSE there's some stuff in it that prolly didn't happen as such, because well, it's still a movie, so you need to be able to make a movie so you might need to add something or leave something out to make it work.
IF someone likes Jesus movies with no violence in it, hey good for you. But if you know you are coming to see the last 12 hours of Jesus, and expect something else than the 12 last hours, what can I say? Doh?!
People don't have to like the movie of course. I'm not saying that well, it's pretty accurate so if you don't like it you hate Jesus!
That's not what I'm saying.. of course you can make argument about it being a bit too violent. But if you want to see POS general version of it, we can always hire Russel Crow to play Jesus, Charlton Heston could be some Roman soldier commanding the beatings and it could be all nice and clean because 'we can imagine what happens'. HEY, if you want to see last 12 hours of the life of the Lord, well, maybe it could be 1 minute long, because we can imagine the rest.
What a bunch of kaka.
You people are something else, not even human, I smell catholics in this thread, I smell non-human Jesus haters.
 , peace and happiness.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Carolus Rex
|
|
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
.. and I can't figure out why so many people got outraged and all hyped up about it.
|
I could have told you it would be an anti-climax for you...
As you know, religion's position in the nordic countries is weak and so there was not much commotion here.
The intolerance of many religious groups never ceases to amaze me... In the late 1980's The Last Temptation of the Christ was released, prompting religious groups to demonstrate and call for censorship... A great movie with a human twist, a small speculation about an alternative version of the life of Christ... He is tempted by Satan to avoid his sufferings on the cross and become a normal man... Hence Christianity would not come into being...
In the end, though, he (Christ) realises that he has fallen for Satan's temptation and so he embrases his destiny and "comes back", nailed to the cross once again...
An outrage, indeed! Ban it, ban it!!! 
Carolus
Last edited by Carolus Rex on 07-07-2005 at 20:22
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MosesPresley
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
What a bunch of cry babies. |
I saw this film with my wife. She's from China and has no idea who or what Jesus was. She was apalled. Without the story, this is simply a snuff film. It is no longer a bible story, it becomes a horror story. Again, tell me where or what the story is. about. Without the message of redemption this is a piece of crap about a some anonymous guy getting tortured to death.
As for the Jews getting upset, they are upset, because passion plays have traditionally been used to stir up anti-semitism for political gain and with usually dire results for them. Another reason people think this is an anti-semite film is because Mel's dad is a holocaust denier.
As far as accuracy, BS! The Jews didn't kill Christ. A few Jews killed Christ. Some jealous pharisees to be specific. This is a subtle, but clear distinction that seems to get overlooked. Also no man could take that kind of beating and live as long as he did. He bled gallons of blood. The bible doesn't give these kind of details. This gore-fest is strictly from the sick imagination of Mel Gibson.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
JohnT
|
 |
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Again, tell me where or what the story is. about. |
It's about how Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Over 1/2 of the Bible versus that use the word "suffer" deal with the Crucifixion (either OT prophesies or NT descriptions.)
quote:
As far as accuracy, BS! The Jews didn't kill Christ. A few Jews killed Christ. Some jealous pharisees to be specific. This is a subtle, but clear distinction that seems to get overlooked. Also no man could take that kind of beating and live as long as he did. He bled gallons of blood. The bible doesn't give these kind of details. This gore-fest is strictly from the sick imagination of Mel Gibson. |
Again, it was nowhere implied that "the Jews" killed Christ. It was obvious to anybody watching the movie (and by "obvious", I mean CRYSTAL-****ING-CLEAR) that the Romans had the final say, and that Jesus was being betrayed by a group of Jews, but not by the entirety of the people themselves.
This point, as made in the movie, is a distinction that the detractors want to overlook in order to blame the film for something it doesn't do.
As to whether or not somebody could take that sort of beating and live... well, in the end Jesus did die. And descriptions of midieval cruelty and torture chambers suggests that the human body is capable of taking more punishment then we moderns want to believe people are capable of giving.
quote:
As for the Jews getting upset, they are upset, because passion plays have traditionally been used to stir up anti-semitism for political gain and with usually dire results for them. Another reason people think this is an anti-semite film is because Mel's dad is a holocaust denier. |
Which, you know, the sins of the father and all that. You want people judging your life by your dads mistakes, Moses?
And given that there wasn't even a ripple of anti-semitism as a result of this movie, it's precisely like the fundies who got mad at LToC: people getting pissed over nothing at all about a movie they haven't bothered seeing. 
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
MosesPresley
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
quote:
Again, tell me where or what the story is. about. |
It's about how Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Over 1/2 of the Bible versus that use the word "suffer" deal with the Crucifixion (either OT prophesies or NT descriptions.)
|
If you haven't read the bible, you don't know this. A film has to stand on its own. They story needs to be complete. Mel was preaching to choir. This isn't art. It is a snuff film.
quote:
As far as accuracy, BS! The Jews didn't kill Christ. A few Jews killed Christ. Some jealous pharisees to be specific. This is a subtle, but clear distinction that seems to get overlooked. Also no man could take that kind of beating and live as long as he did. He bled gallons of blood. The bible doesn't give these kind of details. This gore-fest is strictly from the sick imagination of Mel Gibson. |
quote:
Again, it was nowhere implied that "the Jews" killed Christ. It was obvious to anybody watching the movie (and by "obvious", I mean CRYSTAL-****ING-CLEAR) that the Romans had the final say, and that Jesus was being betrayed by a group of Jews, but not by the entirety of the people themselves.
This point, as made in the movie, is a distinction that the detractors want to overlook in order to blame the film for something it doesn't do. |
Historically passion plays are anti-semitic. It is fairly well known that the point of these things is to stir up the faithful and to rout the heretics. Do a google search on passion plays and see what turns up.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...53/ai_n11838733
"When one considers the history of Christian antisemitism and its consequences, it is easy to see why Jews are wary of Passion plays. This is even more the case when a Passion play is produced as a Hollywood blockbuster harnessed to the star power of a Mel Gibson, and, especially when it becomes the subject of the kind of controversy that emerged in the months before this movie was released. For Jews, Passion plays call up a host of painful memories and images, among them images of the Shoah, the Holocaust. This movie comes at a time when antisemitism has reemerged in Europe to levels that have not been seen since the 1930s.
Thus for most Jews, the release of The Passion of the Christ is seen almost completely in self-referential--we focus on what its implications are for us--and negative terms.
This is not how Christians approach the story of the Passion. The New Testament is their sacred scripture. The Gospels tell the story of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, who suffered and died and rose again to new life. It is a story of sacrifice and love, and on a variety of levels (religious, familial, communal, social, and cultural) resonates in very positive and profound ways. I think that we in the Jewish community owe it to our Christian neighbors to respect the deep spiritual significance this narrative holds for them.
By the same, token, most Christians are unaware how this story resonates for Jews. I believe that the average Christian is not well acquainted with Jewish history in general and the history of Christian anti-Judaism in particular. Those things that most concern the Jewish community are simply not on the radar screen for Christians. Furthermore, in relation specifically to the Shoah and antisemitism, Jews and Christians have a very different sense of immediacy.
For Jews, the Shoah occurred just yesterday. It happened to us, or to our parents or grandparents. I grew up around emigres and survivors who suffered unspeakable things and had numbers on their arms. For many Christians, especially younger ones, what little they know about the Holocaust is ancient history. It happened a long time ago in a place far away, in black and white. It did not affect people they know nor does it have any direct (or even indirect) impact on their lives or their religious identity. There is among some a sense that the Jewish insistence on bringing up the Shoah is somehow obsessive or unhealthy. Get over it, already.
When Jews see the Jewish High Priest portrayed on the movie screen, I think we see ourselves. That's our High Priest, in our Temple; he's wearing something that looks like our tallit. Christians, on the other hand, have a hard time connecting the characters of the New Testament, or the Jews in the movie, to the real (or imagined) Jews they see around them today, whom they perceive as comfortable, prosperous, and secure. Indeed, numerous anecdotal interviews report that Christians who saw the film did not make that connection."
quote:
As to whether or not somebody could take that sort of beating and live... well, in the end Jesus did die. And descriptions of midieval cruelty and torture chambers suggests that the human body is capable of taking more punishment then we moderns want to believe people are capable of giving.
|
Maybe. They kinda, sorta, showed him resurrected.
quote:
As for the Jews getting upset, they are upset, because passion plays have traditionally been used to stir up anti-semitism for political gain and with usually dire results for them. Another reason people think this is an anti-semite film is because Mel's dad is a holocaust denier. |
quote:
Which, you know, the sins of the father and all that. You want people judging your life by your dads mistakes, Moses?
|
I was simply telling you what was behind some of the anger towards this film.
Mel has never publically stated that he disagrees with his father's views. By making a film like this, knowing full well how the Jews will perceive it, if not he is far dumber than I thought, and knowing his father's publically stated opinions, he is tacitly agreeing with his father's opinions of the Jews. If he doesn't want people to think that, then he should make a statement to that effect. AFAIK he hasn't to this date. Part of the price of being in the public eye is that you will be examined under a microscope.
The little I show my virtual face in this semi-public forum, causes all of my opinions to be overly scrutinized. Should Mel expect any less when is reaching out to hundreds of millions?
quote:
And given that there wasn't even a ripple of anti-semitism as a result of this movie, it's precisely like the fundies who got mad at LToC: people getting pissed over nothing at all about a movie they haven't bothered seeing. |
There were some incidents that were attributed to the film. Some vandalism and a fire or two. Although there was no mass uprising against the Jews, America isn't as racist as some people would like to believe, there was a ripple or two.
Worldwide anti-semitism is on the rise and this irresponsible film is not needed. Do a search on that one and you can see the numbers for yourself.
***
The major flaw of this movie is that there is no story. None. You have to already be familiar with the backstory to understand what is going on here. If you haven't read the bible or are familiar with Jesus' story, this movie comes across as an abomination.
A film needs to stand on its own.
edit: cleaned up html errors.
Last edited by MosesPresley on 07-07-2005 at 23:16
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
If you haven't read the bible, you don't know this. A film has to stand on its own. They story needs to be complete. Mel was preaching to choir. This isn't art. It is a snuff film.
|
While I will agree that Mel was preaching to the choir. Most westerners are still familiar with Christianity.
And it doesn't make it not art, or a snuff film, although it should be pointed out that it is not independent.
Do you consider alot of book sequals (or movie sequals, like Return of the King to not be art, and be a snuff film, since they dont' stand on their own?)
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MosesPresley
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
While I will agree that Mel was preaching to the choir. Most westerners are still familiar with Christianity.
And it doesn't make it not art, or a snuff film, although it should be pointed out that it is not independent.
Do you consider alot of book sequals (or movie sequals, like Return of the King to not be art, and be a snuff film, since they dont' stand on their own?)
Jon Miller |
You missed the point of the "snuff" film. It's a snuff film, because it's solely about watching a man die.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
Historically passion plays are anti-semitic. It is fairly well known that the point of these things is to stir up the faithful and to rout the heretics. Do a google search on passion plays and see what turns up.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...53/ai_n11838733
"When one considers the history of Christian antisemitism and its consequences, it is easy to see why Jews are wary of Passion plays. This is even more the case when a Passion play is produced as a Hollywood blockbuster harnessed to the star power of a Mel Gibson, and, especially when it becomes the subject of the kind of controversy that emerged in the months before this movie was released. For Jews, Passion plays call up a host of painful memories and images, among them images of the Shoah, the Holocaust. This movie comes at a time when antisemitism has reemerged in Europe to levels that have not been seen since the 1930s.
|
Europe is, however, not very Christian. So you can't claim that expression of an integral part of Christianity will effect europe one way or another.
Also, while the story of Christ's death could be used to create hatred of Jews, I fail to see how it is related at all to the holocaust (Hitler had other reasons to hate the Jews, and was not a Christian), nor how it is neccesarily related to hating Jews and persecution (and antisemitism).
Otherwise you could say that stories of Native Americans (like Wounded Knee) should not be expressed because they might cause anticaucassionism, the same with stories of slavery, and the like.
Basically, most people can disassociate the past from the present, and a small group with from a race, unless they are supported to not do so.
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MosesPresley
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
A film needs to stand on its own.[/q]
I emphatically disagree, at least in regards to films involving well-known historical events. You don't have to review Hitlers life in the movie in order to watch the film Hitler: The Last Ten Days. Now somebody who might not have the slightest idea of WW2, Hitler, etc. might be confused as to what the F. is going on, but then, the film's not made for them. Best get those people The World at War: The Complete Set. |
You make a good point, but Hitler: The Last Ten Days was about more than watching Hitler poison his family and shooting himself in the head. The film did provide some context.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
07-07-2005 13:05
are you getting offended now too? 
ACK!
|