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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes, that is very true. However, as when the movie first came out, there were numerous questions to how good a job Mel did in following scripture. My response then is the same as now, if you want to answer this question, I'll point you to the passages concerned.
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I'd be interested in seeing that, at least regarding the scourging scene. I've heard several people that that went excessively long, was excessively brutal, and Mel actually went against scripture by making it worse than it was.
I'd very much like to see some Bible quotes to confirm or deny this, and I'm too lazy to walk to the other side of the room and pull my Bible off the shelf. So since you volunteered......
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MosesPresley
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
quote:
Mel has never publically stated that he disagrees with his father's views. By making a film like this, knowing full well how the Jews will perceive it, if not he is far dumber than I thought, and knowing his father's publically stated opinions, he is tacitly agreeing with his father's opinions of the Jews. |
Oh, poppycock and bullshit. Maybe Mel just doesn't want to embarrass his Dad by calling him the fool publicly. Perhaps this is a family matter best left in the family. Perhaps you are drawing inferences where none need be drawn? |
In order to counter that accusation, I think we need to ask some questions.
Why did he make this film? He was out to evangelize and spread the word? I think we already established that he was preaching to choir.
Did he just want money and profit? I thought Mel worshipped Jesus not Mammon. I guess he was just passing the plate at the Sunday sermon.
So maybe he was just out to mobilize the Christian base, as they are so downtrodden and powerless in these anti-christian times. 
Does the world need such a scathing attack on the Pharisees? No, it's a blistering attack on how the Jews deprived the world of it's messiah.
How is this film relevant in any way to what is happening to today's Christians? Inevitable 9/11 references about suffering to follow. 
You may be right. Maybe he doesn't want to call his dad a fool, but this film has little redeeming value except as a horror film. I think I raised some valid points and asked some relevant questions. Now, if you want to call this movie a Grand Guignol, then I am with you. 
I need to take my nephew to see War of the Worlds. I'll check back later.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
How is this film relevant in any way to what is happening to today's Christians? |
This shows that you have no knowledge or understanding of Christianity.
Jon Miller
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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Ozzy, I could just retrieve my earlier post, but instead I chose to look up the passages, since that will be easier to find.
Matthew 26:31-74, Matthew 27
Mark 14:32-72, Mark 15
Luke 22:39-71, Luke 23
John 18, John 19
Now, for some of the other scenes, such as the last supper and the betrayal of Christ by Judas, you will have to read the earlier parts of the first chapter listed in the first three Gospels. I have just started the account from the very beginning of the movie, in the garden of Gethsemane.
Better dust off that bible from your shelf. 
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 08-07-2005 at 00:04
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Jon Miller
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Christ's death, and ressurection, are the key points to Christianity (for most who call themselves Christians).
Jon Miller
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
Does the world need such a scathing attack on the Pharisees? No, it's a blistering attack on how the Jews deprived the world of it's messiah. |
Christians would argue that it was imperative that Christ die - in fact if he did not die, there would be no redemption.
As a sidenote, I want to reiterate that throughout history, Christians have done much in the name of Christ that is horrific, cold-hearted, and hypocritical - as well as things that are gracious, loving and merciful.
No more or no less than any group of people.
quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
How is this film relevant in any way to what is happening to today's Christians? |
Boris hit it on the head - it is a reminder of his suffering and the cost - in effect, a contrast between mankind's depravity and God's willingness to redeem mankind.
Something that too many Christians take for granted - and forget. Even a non-believer can gleam something from this on a purely human level.
I did try to view it from an objective standpoint when I saw it - almost as if I did not believe what I do. What I saw was something that I have little desire to see again. Because it was sheer brutality with little or no relief.
But it was a vivid picture of how man can treat others - how much hatred there can be in the world and how it can be directed at one person - how hatred can flow out from a few and infect the many - and how there can be moments of grace within the carnage of hate.
Mel used a hammer, but the nature of suffering can be very blunt sometimes.
Would I see it again? I don't think I could take it again, but I have no regrets of the reminders it gave me...
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Vanguard
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Monster Island
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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NM, overstated
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MosesPresley
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My 11 year old nephew loved War of the Worlds. He thought it was creepy, but liked it anyway.
On topic:
This is my last word on the subject. It is not my point to convert anyone here, I only wanted to state my opinion and to clarify my position. Also I cannot argue Mel Gibson's intent as to why he made the film with any real authority. Who knows, maybe he was sincere? It's just that it all seems very suspect to me in light of the history of Passion Plays.
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/061810.htm
February 04, 2004
Mel Gibson, Holocaust Denier?
In the debates over Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion, one thing that has always been insisted by his defenders is that Gibson is not antisemitic and not a Holocaust Denier, even though his father apparently is. But is that really true? He was recently given a chance to demonstrate that and.... well, the results weren't very encouraging.
Peggy Noonan, a Catholic journalist, asked Gibson "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" According to The New York Post, Gibson responded:
"I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:
Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. Nothing that Gibson said was inconsistent with the views of a Holocaust denier, and, indeed, as I pointed out, his statement sounds a lot like the stated views of the editor of the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. This all may be innocent on Gibson's part, and, if someone would ask him directly, "do you believe that the Germans murdered approximately six million Jews during World War II" and he said "yes" I would leave it at that. But given that he grew up in an anti-Semitic family, with a Holocaust-denying father, and has now asserted views that are very much consistent with the views of a Holocaust-denier, I can't say that my presumptions are with him at this point.
Gibson also said something else interesting during the interview:
Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
I wonder if that includes statements about the Jews and about the Holocaust?
A little more context from David Bernstein.
http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic...547499488174255
[David Bernstein, 1/30/2004 07:03:14 AM]
Mel Gibson: Holocaust Denier? I haven't wanted to prejudge Mel Gibson's film on Jesus, nor have I wanted to judge him based on his affiliation with a sect that rejects Vatican II, nor based on the anti-Semitism of his father. I've gotten many concerned emails from Jewish friends on all of the latter topics, and have basically ignored them, especially those that would judge him based on the nutty views of his dad.
The following, however, is at least troubling and deserves further explanation:
'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March.
Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
There are some serious problems with this statement, include the gratuitous lumping of the Holocaust with other tragedies that were not relevant in context, that suggest an aggressive hostility to Noonan's question (the question itself would seem a bit strange, but for the fact that Gibson's father is a Holocaust denier), and at best a desire to put the Holocaust into "context". But here's the really troubling part: "The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps." I'm no expert on Holocaust "revisionism" (denial), but I've read enough about it to know that this part of Gibson's statement sounds a heck of a lot like what the deniers say: instead of stating the historically obvious, that there was a systematic campaign to exterminate Jews in death camps, they say that Jews were merely among the many victims who suffered and died in concentration camps; maybe they suffered slightly more than others, but that's about it.
Indeed, Gibson is skirting pretty close to "Holocaust denial." Here is what the Nizkor.org website says about the topic:
The question [of whether the Institute for Historical Review, the leading Holocaust denial group, denies the Holocaust] appears to turn on IHR's Humpty-Dumpty word game with the word Holocaust. According to Mark Weber, associate editor of the IHR's Journal of Historical Review, "If by the `Holocaust' you mean the political persecution of Jews, some scattered killings, if you mean a cruel thing that happened, no one denies that. But if one says that the 'Holocaust' means the systematic extermination of six to eight millions Jews in concentration camps, that's what we think there's not evidence for." That is, IHR doesn't deny that the Holocaust happened; they just deny that the word "Holocaust" means what people customarily use it for.
Now compare this to what Gibson said. The Holocaust happened. He has friends and parents of friends with numbers on their arms. A guy who taught him Spanish had a tatoo, was a survivor of the camps (not clear if he was Jewish). Atrocities happened. Millions were killed. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Note what this leaves out: that Jews were murdered in death camps, and were murdered because they were Jews, beyond some scattered killings, as part of a systematic program of genocide. Maybe I'm reading too much (or not enough) into this, but I'm certainly not satisfied after reading what Gibson has to say about the Holocaust that he believes the Holocaust, as the word is commonly understood, occurred. And, while I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt on this, and assume that he just used clumsy language, it's quite hard to do so knowing the views of his father (edite: which, because of the controversy surrounding them, suggest that Gibson would be both familiar with the views of Holocaust deniers and sensitive to the subtleties attendant to the controversy).
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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Ozzy quote:
Then there are plenty of options out there in the market now. If people want a nice, Disneyfied version they can find that. If they want what happened in a more graphic, realistic presentation, then Mel Gibson gave them that option. |
And people who are offended can say so. A Polytubbie asked why they were offended and we've tried to explain their rationale.
quote:
Actually no, how Jesus died is actually important to the religion. |
Was this movie just for the religion? How he died is not more important than his message. What counts to you?
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How he lived gave us a groovy dude with some cool ideas about love that we should model our lives after. |
How we doin?
quote:
His death gave us the more spiritual, metaphysical things to actually believe in. Why did Jesus die? Because through it he destroyed death. Why did Jesus suffer? To prove the incredible extent to which God loves us. It actually is important. |
This the same God who sent the Flood? If you think how he died warrants an entire movie that leaves out much of what he stood for, would the religion even exist if this movie was our source and not the Bible?
quote:
And it does reinforce his teachings about love, forgiveness and peace. The fact that the son of God endured such brutality when at any point he could have called down God's wrath upon his tormenters shows the superhuman restraint and love he has. It is an impossible ideal for us to strive towards always. When Jesus said turn the other cheek, he really meant it. When he said love your enemy, he really meant it. His suffering and death was the ultimate test and proof of this. |
This the same God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because a small group of people mis-treated a couple angels? Without the message, the death loses relevance. While its true most people claiming to be Christians ignore his teachings (the movie preaches to a very small choir), some do or did so the ideals aren't impossible, just very difficult to achieve. But many have died without resisting or calling down God's wrath...
quote:
Then don't watch it. |
Well thank God you gave me that advice or I might have.
Looks to me like you think this thread asks whether or not the movie should be banned, otherwise telling me not to watch a movie I just said was unappealing has no relevance.
quote:
If it happened, it happened. It doesn't have any commentary on current day Jews, or even on all Jews at Jesus' time (he and all his supporters were obviously Jews too). It no more preaches hate against Jews than Schindler's List preaches hate against Germans. |
Did it happen?
This world is ruled by "Us & Them", call it "evilution". If some of "them" murder God, "them" is cast in a negative light.
Pekka quote:
But if you want to see POS general version of it, we can always hire Russel Crow to play Jesus, Charlton Heston could be some Roman soldier commanding the beatings and it could be all nice and clean because 'we can imagine what happens'. HEY, if you want to see last 12 hours of the life of the Lord, well, maybe it could be 1 minute long, because we can imagine the rest.
What a bunch of kaka. |
You're right, 1 minute would have been enough. "Heeeeeere's Jesus, see Jesus getting flayed? Now watch him get flayed for 2 hours for only $8".
quote:
You people are something else, not even human, I smell catholics in this thread, I smell non-human Jesus haters. |
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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quote:
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:
Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. |
The Nazis didn't single out Jews, there were a number of groups they targeted. That analysis presumes the truth makes one a holocaust denier. Gibson's critic didn't refute what he said, just used guilt by association. Thats why the Jews have been cast in a negative light for so long, guilt by association.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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quote:
I'm not wanting to get into a parsing debate, but the point of the entire Gospels is that Jesus lived up to his teachings when it mattered most. And while the film mostly focused on the suffering and the example of how not to hate your haters, there were segments in the film where Jesus taught - the Garden, the Last Supper, etc.
I think that for what POTC set out to do, it did very well. |
And that fact makes his death important to his teachings, without the teachings it is irrelevant. I prefer movies that focus on his teachings, not his death. I dont care if Gibson wanted to focus on his death to make the point that the teachings were followed by the teacher, but 2 hours of watching the teacher get flayed? If I visit a PETA meeting because I like animals, I sure don't want to watch a 2 hour film of an animal being tortured either. Oh yeah, if you make several points in a paragraph, it ain't "parsing" to address each point.
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Jon Miller
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"How he lived gave us a groovy dude with some cool ideas about love that we should model our lives after."
same could be claimed about others...
what makes Jesus different for Christians, is His death and ressurection
Jon Miller
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07-07-2005 23:29
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