10-07-2005 00:50									#241
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*shrug*

Believe what you want, Boris.

But when a viable alt. fuel cell comes from a private corp. that had little, if any public assistance, and not from some government lab, don't say I didn't tell you so.



-=Vel=-

PS: And yes, those private companies DID buy up patents to alt. fuel engines. And they still have them today. This will, in all liklihood, be the jumping off point for research.

What? You don't REALLY believe they destroyed all evidence of their existence, do you?

	10-07-2005 01:03									#242
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Do you think that politicians that want's to be reelected make more sane choices ? Due to the anti nuclear power freaks it's very nonPC to even mention that as an alternative to fossile fuels here.

For sure politicians are no better, they are always seeking (re)-election. Funding of programmes will therefore suffer if it is politically expedient. They will also want to fund programmes that give results or they will cut funding. My point was directed at the argument that the free market will be more likely to give us the answers. It won't because it seeks the easiest route, not the best route.

That said, if there are no major political issues with developing, say, hydrogen fuel cells, then the fact that the research is a risky loss-leader means little as it will not prevent the project going ahead.

quote: Even if it were all hurled at one company, you do realize that the sum is chicken feed to the amount that the first company will gain by perfecting, patenting, and marketing a viable alt. fuel source, yes? That's all the incentive smart money needs.

How much money will they make? What are their expected cost-benefits.

If you say to a company, look we can make $1 million for sure over the next 10 years for an outlay of $1 million on a cheap solution OR we can possibly make $100 million in 20 years if we spend $10 million now.

No sane company would take the latter option unless they were forced to, or where given assurances through government grants or other 'charity/philanthropy' to cover their costs.

	10-07-2005 01:16									#243
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, they'd probably do both....in classic entrepreneureal style.

Or...they won't, and someone else will come along who will (going back to Boris' earlier example of oil mavens buying up alt. energy engines and keeping them under wraps to protect their interests....those technologies were developed by others, when it became clear that the entrenched businesses were slow on the draw.

Yes...you'll undoubtedly see a number of "quick fix" technologies appear in coming years. In fact, a quick google search on "increasing fuel efficiency" reveals a whole lot of them, right now, but that doesn't mean that longer term solutions aren't already in the works. And this DESPITE the contention just made that the current administration isn't supporting it.

But it's happening anyways.

Imagine that.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 01:31									#244
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am in no doubt that a long term shift will arrive, but will it be the best solution?

A demonstrative example is the gauge of railway in use in most of the world. The current guage is pretty much the width of a mine cart. The wide guage was proposed and used on many of Britain's railways alongside the narrow gauge until a standardised gauge was required as a long term solution. After a series of tests and government review it was clear that the wide guage was far superior in terms of safety, stability and speed of carriage.

The narrow gauge was kept because it was more commonplace and cheaper to build. What I therefore am concerned about is that we accept the first solution, which will be the cheap solution, and do not implement the better solution.

	10-07-2005 01:35									#245
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We may...sure.

We'll probably never know with absolute certainty whether or not the solution we arrive at is, was, or will be, "the best." That's just the nature of the world we live in.

What we CAN say for certainty is that if someone hits upon an even better way after we have a viable alternative, it has just as much potential to catch on and work its way into the fabric of our lives (for a mundane example, consider music:

We start with vinyl, then migrated to the not-necessarily better 8-track (an audiophile would KILL you for suggesting that the 8-track was better)...then on to cassette, and finally arrived at the much better, digital quality CD (again, an audiophile would still swear by vinyl, and regard everything else as inherently inferior, but that's....a matter of personal preference, mostly)

The side stops along the way (those "quick fix, lesser technologies" ) were important in their way as stepping stones to get us to where we are today, sound wise.

And you can see that trend in almost every industry out there.

I suspect you'll be able to see it with energy as well (and in fact, you already can).

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 01:42									#246
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As an aside...I think it was Sandman who said earlier that the Market stood no chance in hell of being able to get us out of our oil dependence.

I find this interesting as it was "the market" (specifically a guy named Ford) who got us INTO that dependence, and that's not a bad thing (necessary, in fact).

And, in the same way that market forces created the current climate, they will create the solution.

It happens all the time.

Granted, this is one of the bedrock, foundational industries of the whole economy, and thus, orders of magnitude more important, but the mechanism that will drive the change is still the same.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 01:55									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I am in no doubt that a long term shift will arrive, but will it be the best solution? A demonstrative example is the gauge of railway in use in most of the world. The current guage is pretty much the width of a mine cart. The wide guage was proposed and used on many of Britain's railways alongside the narrow gauge until a standardised gauge was required as a long term solution. After a series of tests and government review it was clear that the wide guage was far superior in terms of safety, stability and speed of carriage. The narrow gauge was kept because it was more commonplace and cheaper to build. What I therefore am concerned about is that we accept the first solution, which will be the cheap solution, and do not implement the better solution.

Hate to say it, but you are totally wrong.,c the standard guage isn't based upon mine charts. There has been several railway lines that use a more narrow with than the current standard width and they probably stems from such mine charts. The standard guage has a totally different story. despite it's seemingly absurd argumentation, I think that the following link gives a reasonable explanation.

http://infobluemountains.net.au/rail/horse-ass.htm

I don't think that you can invent a correct way to do things from step one - further research may descide that the original descicion despite it was made upon false assumptions was wrong.

	10-07-2005 02:10									#248
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Hate to say it, but you are totally wrong.,c the standard guage isn't based upon mine charts. http://infobluemountains.net.au/rail/horse-ass.htm

Given that Stephenson, the father of the railways, worked with mine carts and tracks I would find the use of Imperial Roman wagon wheels to be a little odd, unless they happened to derived from the same source for some reason.

	10-07-2005 02:25									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Given that Stephenson, the father of the railways, worked with mine carts and tracks I would find the use of Imperial Roman wagon wheels to be a little odd, unless they happened to derived from the same source for some reason.

He might have worked with mine charts, but I guess that he was not narrowminded and could see that what was good in underground not nessecarily was good on the surface. My guess is that he looked at a horse coach and desicded upon those dimensions when he designed his first surface steam engine train.

Besides, whats wrong with the asumption that charts are build to messure up with two horses side by side and roads accordingly ? Actually, I find it pretty logic.

	10-07-2005 02:30									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As an aside...I think it was Sandman who said earlier that the Market stood no chance in hell of being able to get us out of our oil dependence. I find this interesting as it was "the market" (specifically a guy named Ford) who got us INTO that dependence, and that's not a bad thing (necessary, in fact). And, in the same way that market forces created the current climate, they will create the solution. It happens all the time. Granted, this is one of the bedrock, foundational industries of the whole economy, and thus, orders of magnitude more important, but the mechanism that will drive the change is still the same. -=Vel=-

Sounds like it's inevitable.

A good way to reduce oil dependency would be to improve public transport, even though the free market isn't much good at delivering it.

	10-07-2005 02:45									#251
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

GePap likes to deal in inevitability, not me...but the trend is certainly there, and can be seen throughout the last two hundred odd years of my own country's history, and certainly back much farther than that, so yes...I'd say that odds are incredibly on our side.

And I agree...public transport would be a decent way to reduce dependence...won't happen in the States, because people here love their cars, but a good thought. Hell, even a partial measure to keep cars out of downtown areas (and using mass transit IN those areas) would be easy to legislate and enforce, and see some savings right off the cuff.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 02:47									#252
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Besides, whats wrong with the asumption that charts are build to messure up with two horses side by side and roads accordingly ? Actually, I find it pretty logic.

The purpose of the railway was to do away with horses, and so the width would be better determined by the size of the steam engine in my opinion. But that's me.

	10-07-2005 02:47									#253
	Put an end to popups!

PS: The market is *excellent* at delivering mass transit transportation.

The problem, however, is that demand isn't there, and there's no profit in it.

That can (fairly easily, in certain specific instances--see above) be changed, at which point, you'd see several private companies leap forward to take the reins.

If the climate isn't there...if the profit isn't there...no, the market's not gonna budge.

That's not exactly a secret tho.

The trick is...to change the rules.

-=VEl=-

	10-07-2005 02:59									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin The purpose of the railway was to do away with horses, and so the width would be better determined by the size of the steam engine in my opinion. But that's me.

Uhmn, no. The steam engine was supposed to replace the horses, but why should that make any change to the load drawn ?

	10-07-2005 03:02									#255
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I don't understand the relevance of your question.

	10-07-2005 03:15									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I don't understand the relevance of your question.

You have a pretty well defined load - a coach - why should you want to change the size of this just because you have invented something that can replace the horses ?

	10-07-2005 03:17									#257
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The loads you can carry with a steam engine far far exceed that which a horse can pull.

	10-07-2005 03:22									#258
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A coach isn't drawn by one horse - 2 to 6 was the norm.

	10-07-2005 03:23									#259
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And steam engines had 'horsepower' orders of magnitude greater than that too.

	10-07-2005 03:32									#260
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True...and yet...there it is.

The railways are indeed....just that wide.

Is there a better standard?

Undoubtedly.

And Betamax was better than VHS, too.

That didn't make it the standard, however.

Acceptance makes the standards.

Ease of acceptance.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 03:33									#261
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Shi Huangdi,

quote: "The terrorists have come home," said a senior intelligence official based in Europe, who works often with British officials. "It is payback time for a policy that was, in my opinion, an irresponsible policy of the British government to allow these networks to flourish inside Britain."

I am under the impression that some Brits will not agree with this statement.

	10-07-2005 03:35									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin And steam engines had 'horsepower' orders of magnitude greater than that too.

I guess that we can keep this thread pretty hot by our "steamed" discussion, and I don't mind to continue. Though, the relevance to the political aspects of the bombings in london may be a little vauge, so I suggest either cease fire or a new thread .

Just a warning, my father collects steam locomotives size 1:1 so I think that I have an idea of what I'm talking about

	10-07-2005 03:43									#263
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Cat!

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2005 03:45									#264
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I figured it was your thread to start with, so the threadjack was ok. I'm glad you see the lighter side.

I studied the original Stockton-Darlington line and the whole Boulton-Watt steam engines as part of my socio-cconomics history of late 18th and early 19th century Britain at school. So I found it interesting to revisit in one-line mode.

	10-07-2005 04:10									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I figured it was your thread to start with, so the threadjack was ok. I'm glad you see the lighter side.

Nah, I concider this thread as public to discuss the political aspects of the bombing and of course energy, sources of such and the devices that use them are a part of that - I just guess that we both went down a path that was a little off topic

quote: I studied the original Stockton-Darlington line and the whole Boulton-Watt steam engines as part of my socio-cconomics history of late 18th and early 19th century Britain at school. So I found it interesting to revisit in one-line mode.

Admitted, you probably know more about the political aspects of the origin lines - my knowledge is more about danish railroads and the functionality of steam engines.

	10-07-2005 04:56									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal Western Civilization? You should know that attacks in London were obviously another ETA´s fine work. Send greetings to Aznarin from us wherever he is.

"A palabras necias..."

At least Aznar does not justify terrorism acts claiming that they are just angry responses to the injustices in the world provoked by the Western countries...

	10-07-2005 19:57									#267
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it is both interesting and telling that a discussion of the political causes of terrorism moves swiftly to energy and economic issues.

'Poly may be on to something here!

	11-07-2005 02:21									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Let me recommend a book that might help on this subject- "Freedom under Thatcher" by Keith Ewing and Conor Gearty. It might cause you to reconsider your stance- particularly the sections on police and judicial tactics used during the miners strike.

i don't know much about the miners strike, since it happend around the time i was born, from what i do know, it was at the time a national crisis. i don't think you can compare how a goernment acts in a crisis to the erosion of rights that we've seen in the last eight years.

what will be interesting to see is how this government reacts to these bombings, my guess would be to get ID cards pushed through, but we'll have to wait and see.

	11-07-2005 02:37									#269
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Quotes from the topped thread, my comment wouldn't be appropriate there.

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler quote: The attack was unreservedly condemned at Friday prayers by the mosque's imam. This is what we need to win the War On Terror. There are those on both sides who characterize the war as Christians vs. Muslims. If the war ever becomes to be generally viewed as that, then it becomes a war which cannot be won. This was must be seen in its true nature: barbarian hate-filled fanatics vs. civilization.

Unfortunately, I can't escape the nagging suspicion that many Muslims who condemn the bombings, do so primarily because they appear to give Muslims a bad name. At least I have yet to hear a Muslim leader who doesn't connect those two 'messages'. Not just convey them separately, but connect them.

Edit: Corrected 'to' to 'two'

	11-07-2005 06:37									#270
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The idea that the west will become independent of Middle Eastern oil is absurd- economically unfeasable, and besides the "West" is not even going to be the main oil customers in the next few decades.

but beyond that, the impoverishment of places like SA and the gulf states would only lead to greater Islamic militancy, NOT LESS. The notion that the west would then be safer cause, what? No Saudi funders? is also rather strange. Terrorism is not that hugely expensive, and there will be plenty of wealth amongst the supporters of Islamic militancy to bankroll attacks.

I liked Plato's post about AQ aims.

The thing is, those aims are in sequence. The "world domination" on is far, FAR, in teh future, given thay have yet to take over any significant Muslim states- they only got Afghanistan because that country was blown to bits and left utterly lawless and destitute by fighting, and the people wlecomed the relative stability of the Taliban vs. the utter chaos of the warlords.

But lets be realisitc here: Islamic terrorist are weak, period. Terrorism is the tool of the weak vs. the strong. 9/11 stands out because it was the first time EVER that an act of terrorism actually killed so many people to be on par with the approved method of political violence, war. But war still beats out terrorism 99% of the time when it comes to what kills more people.

For example, the worst campaign of terrorism ever vs. Israel (the last 5 years) have claimed 1065 Israeli lives, according to the Israeli Gov.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism.../> orism%20sinc
Compare that to 2600 Israelis killed in a couple of months the last time Israel got into a serious shooting war with another state, in 1973.
http://www.settingtheworldtorights.com/node/136