09-07-2005 15:12									#181
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I have no problem in being consider an enemy by YOU. It is only a pity for you.

Christ- rein in your paranoia, sunshine. It's possible to disagree with someone's opinion on an internet forum without labelling them "the enemy".

	09-07-2005 15:17									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Christ- rein in your paranoia, sunshine. It's possible to disagree with someone's opinion on an internet forum without labelling them "the enemy".

I though you labelled me the enemy

	09-07-2005 15:23									#183
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I though you labelled me the enemy

Remember Trafalgar and Barfleur !!!!



The real enemies are the enemies of free societies- which includes terrorists AND politicians who imagine that they know what is best for us.

I for one am grateful (if a little bemused) by Tory opposition to identity cards- I'm sure it's an idea that Margaret Thatcher would have welcomed when she identified people who opposed her as: 'the enemy within'.

	09-07-2005 16:02									#184
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Damn. I was so hoping that table of statistics would come out properly...

Only two european countries on the list : Spain and France. Most attacks in Spain were made by ETA. In France they were islamist.
The French result is the best with the lowest number of deaths per attack. If the benefit of ID is not appearing in all countries, we can at least recognize that it likely helps when properly used.

	09-07-2005 16:11									#185
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Only two european countries on the list : Spain and France. Most attacks in Spain were made by ETA. In France they were islamist. The French result is the best with the lowest number of deaths per attack. If the benefit of ID is not appearing in all countries, we can at least recognize that it likely helps when properly used.

But the use or existence of identity cards does not necessarily correlate with the prevention of a greater number of deaths or casualties- you would also have to ask what kind of terrorist attacks they were for instance, what kind of explosive, weaponry, what the target was, where the explosion or shooting took place.


And again, given the vagaries of French internal and external politics, there would be a difference between Islamist attacks against 'hard' French (government/military) targets and softer civilian targets- such as the Rue Copernic attack, or the recent spate of arson attacks on synagogues in France.

	09-07-2005 16:20									#186
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I for one am grateful (if a little bemused) by Tory opposition to identity cards- I'm sure it's an idea that Margaret Thatcher would have welcomed when she identified people who opposed her as: 'the enemy within'.

that's maybe because unlike the lot we've got in power at the moment the tories care about individual freedom.

	09-07-2005 16:35									#187
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney that's maybe because unlike the lot we've got in power at the moment the tories care about individual freedom.

Yeah, right. I remember the 1980s and 1990s all too well, thanks, and never found that to be the case.


" Margaret Thatcher has consistently declared that one of her main aims whilst in government was to decrease the amount of state interference and power that the state exerted over the everyday lives of British citizens. In her apparent attempt to do so, she, in fact, increased her own personal power, and that of her party, at the expense of the liberal freedoms that form a key part of Britain. As the constitutional reform group, Charter 88, put it in a pamphlet published soon after its launch:

"A process is underway, which endangers many of the freedoms we have had... More generally, the government has eroded a number of important civil freedoms...the universal right to habeas corpus, to peaceful assembly, to freedom of information, to freedom of expression, to membership of a trade union...to freedom of movement...By taking these rights from some, the government puts them at risk for all."

This declaration of the dangers of Thatcherism to the rights of the British citizen was no isolated call for change. The signs were clear that the government was overriding an alarming proportion of common civil liberties. Just a few examples include:

Local Government

Over 50 acts, aimed at reducing the independence of local authorities, were passed during Thatcher's residence in Downing Street. These involved financial penalties to local authorities that did not step into line with Government spending plans and policies, including the withholding of Government grants, rate capping, and the eventual abolition of the Greater London Council and the six metropolitan county authorities. As a result, both the independence and powers of local authorities were greatly reduced, leaving a greater concentration of power at the hands of the Government, and, thus, Margaret Thatcher as party leader. This greater power led to the confidence needed for the imposition of the 'community charge', or poll tax, perhaps the least popular attempt at funding the state in the history of democratic Britain. As Lord Jenkins put it in March 1988: "The result of that policy [the abolition of local authorities] has been a degree of civic degradation which it would be difficult to imagine being imposed on any other democratic country."

Civil liberties

There are many examples of the Conservative Government's erosion of civil liberties, some of which are included in the Charter 88 statement printed above. Other examples, such as the extension of police powers, the curb on public protest by requiring notification of any such demonstration at least a week in advance and the Criminal Justice Act, which, among other things, included the infamous clause banning any gathering at which was played "music including a repetitive beat", indicate that the Government desired to limit the freedom to dissent, which is an integral part of liberal democracy. Even the basic rights of the work force, including the right to strike and the right to join a union were attacked, in direct contravention of the 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights. In her heavy-handed attempts to deal with the problems presented by unions, Margaret Thatcher was again striking at the very heart of liberal democratic freedom.

Official secrets

The Conservative Government consistently pursued alleged breaches of official secrets legislation, winning the actions against civil servants such as Sarah Tidsall but losing others including Clive Ponting (the MoD official who leaked embarrassing information about the sinking of the Belgrano) and Peter Wright, the author of the infamous book, Spycatcher. MI5 was also put on a legal footing for the first time, and operations by this institution, such as burglary and tapping of phones, were authorised. Thatcher's instinct remained always on the side of an attitude of secrecy and intrigue in Whitehall and against disclosure in the public interest. Freedom of expression and of the press is one of the most important freedoms that we possess in Britain, and these attempted gaggings by the government were one of the most worrying symptoms of the erosion of civil liberties by the Conservative Party. Although I would not argue that a government is never justified in keeping secrets in the national interest, some of the facts, which the Conservatives attempted to conceal from the public, while not harming the state, bruised their credibility as a trustworthy political force. The example given above of the Clive Ponting affair, and the use of the public interest immunity in the attempt to conceal the sale of the 'super-gun' to Iraq are just two cases where this was self-evidently true. The suppression of facts had nothing to do with the well being of Britain but much to do with Margaret Thatcher's standing in the eyes of the public. "

http://www.dulwich.org.uk/per/old/per2001/sellwood.htm


Remember the abolition of metropolitan authorities ? The abolition of the I.L.E.A ?

Democratically elected bodies which were removed by national government fiat.

Leopards and spots, old chum.

	09-07-2005 16:46									#188
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom But the use or existence of identity cards does not necessarily correlate with the prevention of a greater number of deaths or casualties- you would also have to ask what kind of terrorist attacks they were for instance, what kind of explosive, weaponry, what the target was, where the explosion or shooting took place. And again, given the vagaries of French internal and external politics, there would be a difference between Islamist attacks against 'hard' French (government/military) targets and softer civilian targets- such as the Rue Copernic attack, or the recent spate of arson attacks on synagogues in France.

I was commenting the statistics as you published them. You say that no useful comment can be made, except that the French result is due to vagaries of internal and external politics. I wish all nations to enjoy such an efficient use of political vagaries.
For your information, most of the arson attacks on synagogues were not of terrorist origin.

	09-07-2005 16:56									#189
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I was commenting the statistics as you published them. You say that no useful comment can be made, except that the French result is due to waries of internal and external politics. I wish all nations to enjoy such an efficient use of political vagaries. For your information, most of the arson attacks on synagogues were not of terrorist origin.

I didn't say definitively that the French figures were due to the vagaries of internal politics and foreign policies, although France's colonial role in North Africa and Syria/Lebanon and the presence of large numbers of French born Muslims of North African descent are two factors which would influence both domestic and foreign policy stances and therefore have a likely effect on whether or not France would be a target for Islamist terrorists.


Now I'm not quite sure how you can say that the arson attacks on French synagogues were not of 'terrorist' origin- they are after all 'soft' civilian targets and French government sources said this:

"...the government in Paris argues that the attacks are mainly the work of Muslims of North African origin and must be seen in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "

after things like this had happened:

" About 15 masked assailants smashed two cars into a synagogue in Lyon and set it on fire.

A man fired a shotgun twice at a kosher butcher's shop in a village near the southern city of Toulouse.

Arsonists tried to burn down a synagogue in Strasbourg, in the east, but failed to do serious damage. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1904547.stm


Organisation, the use of arson, terror, and intimidation, a 'political' or 'racial' motivation- sounds like terrorism to me not high spirits.

	09-07-2005 17:18									#190
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Submitted without comment (because its vileness stands all by itself):

I don't see much objectively wrong with that statement . It indeed was a good time to buy .

Oh , I forgot that terrorism was not commonplace and a fact of life over there . Sorry , but you'll see what I mean when this sort of thing starts happening on a regular basis - like every day , in some or the other place .

	09-07-2005 17:28									#191
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I remember of arson attacks on synagogues and schools : they were made by individual unsatisfied for some reason independently of any terrorist consideration. As for cars set on fire, that cannot seriously be considered as terrorism. And terrorizing a kosher butcher is not equivalent of a terror attack; many retailers are attacked every day; they are victims of armed thiefs, not of terrorists, even if they are terrorized.
It is useless to describe as terrorist the smallest incident which would never have received such a qualification before 9/11.

	09-07-2005 17:35									#192
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I remember of arson attacks on synagogues and schools : they were made by individual unsatisfied for some reason independently of any terrorist consideration. As for cars set on fire, that cannot seriously be considered as terrorism. And terrorizing a kosher butcher is not equivalent of a terror attack; many retailers are attacked every day; they are victims of armed thiefs, not of terrorists, even if they are terrorized. It is useless to describe as terrorist the smallest incident which would never have received such a qualification before 9/11.

As the article stated about the arson attempts and shotgun attack:

" The earlier attacks all came within 24 hours each hours of each other at the weekend in or near major cities. "


So, coordination, planning, intimidation- not random acts of violence perpetrated against unrelated targets, but deliberate attacks on a particular part of France's citizenry distinguished by their culture, faith or perceived 'race', and believed by the police and French government to be carried out by elements within France's Muslim community in connection with political events elsewhere.

No different in that respect from the kind of violence one saw on a regular basis directed against the Catholic or Protestant communities in the United Kingdom by sectarian terrorists.

	09-07-2005 18:59									#193
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quote: Actually, the situation in Iraq is a battle between those who want a pluralistic federated republic, or a return to a Sunni authoritarian state, or a Shia Theocratic state, or an independent Kurdish state, and those who want a Taliban style Islamic state.

So far the Sunni Rejectionists and the Islamists are the only ones actively taking arms against us. All of the other groups are cooperating within the framework of the Iraqi government.

	09-07-2005 19:20									#194
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The editorial of Eleutherotypia (Free Press) (one of the biggest 3) is worth reading.


Death is on patrol

The repulsive crime and the open wounds of London remind to the archterrorists of the globe that it is their own terrorzoid policy, their own hideous crimes that provoke the terrorism of others.... But they insist unrepandant: they intensify their terrorist effort to subjugate the world, preanounce restrictions and terrorlaws and maintain bastions of fire defiying the gloabl public opinion that is, provengly, resisting their logic.

	09-07-2005 19:31									#195
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Yeah, right. I remember the 1980s and 1990s all too well...

and don't we just know it!

you know when i said individual freedom, i was talking about the rights and freedoms of...you know...individuals, not some leftie local authorities that got dismantled or whatever.

no one is saying that the tories were perfect (far from it), but you can't seriously be suggesting that they have anything on this lot. i'd love to list every single attack this government has made on the rights of the people, but i've got to be in work in three hours!

we have a wholly illiberal government, who seem to want to control every aspect of people's lives and spend our money doing it. you can't pick up a paper these days without reading about some new 'nanny state' initiative designed to protect us from ourselves at great expense. and it's not just benign, well intentioned, meddling in people's lives either, sometimes the left really hits the jackpot and gets to not only curb people's rights but also to strike a vindictive blow at people who they perceive as having done them some wrong in the past and who will never vote labour, the ban on foxhunting being the best example.

	09-07-2005 19:39									#196
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It has been some time now since we have visited the stated goals of AQ. Many here are lamenting the fact that debate will be unlikely to change the mind of Apolytoners. Some have even rightly pointed out that this particular fact mirrors RL society. The reason for this, IMHO, is that we are not focused on the root philosophy of each side. So let's start there as best I can:

Goals of the "West" (In order of importance)

1.) Stabilize the flow and production of oil from the Middle East.

2.) Develop relationships with governments that maintain the status quo of power in the region (Two aspects...ME-West power relationship, and Arab-Isralei power relationship.)

3.) Encourage the democratization of the region and the rule of law.

Basic and probably incomplete, but it hits the high points.

Goals of al-qaeda(also in order of importance)

1.) Development of a pan-Islamic state with Taliban style government.

2.) Removal of all foriegn influence from the region in which the pan-Islamic state will develop

3.) Destruction or conversion of all non-muslims.

These are plainly stated in the AQ manifesto should you care to look it up.

This leads to the current conflicts that we see in the ME. To state that the Iraq war is not related to terrorism is to misunderstand the goals of both sides in this war. It is a manifestation of goals 1,2, and 3 for the "west" (in this particular case I assume you could read US), but it has also become a battleground that AQ cannot afford to loose as it is in conflict with goals 1 and 2 of their objectives.

Afghanistan has taken on less significance in this battleground because it has little to do with goal 1 of the west. It is still a battleground due to the fact that it satisfies goals 2 and 3 for the west and goals 1,2, and 3 for AQ. Here, however, one does not read the goals of the west as "the US". This is truly a joint effort and thus AQ's ability to divide the western powers is diminished. The application of their forces in Iraq is much more efficient from a political standpoint.

The problem:

1.) Removal of all western forces from the ME will not change the goal of AQ to establish a pan-Islamic state. In fact, it will make it easier. The rise in religious fundamentalism is gov't sponsored in many cases through the financing of Madras and allownace of strong religious influence in government. The autocratic nature of many of these governments and the economic benefits they receive fro relations with the west make them excellent targets for Iranian style or Afghanistan style fundamentalist takeovers.

In fact, the removal (achievement of goal 2 for AQ), would make it easier for the establishment of goal 1. The resulting pan-Islamic state would then be able to economically and, given enough time, militarily dominate the west.

2.) The west interest in the ME is and will most likely always be an economic one first. Let's face it, we all are dependent on oil for the way we live our daily lives. Until this changes, the west will most definately have a strong interest in the ME. The point of wheather or not this is "right" or "moral" is moot as this is just the way it is. As long as the ME world perceives that this is our primary goal, we will see the animosity for the west continue.

The Solution:

1.) There is no solution where all parties can achieve their goals. This, unfortunately, is true and will certainly lead to long term conflict on some level.

2.) Democratization and the rule of law must be encouraged in all countries of the ME. (not just the ones that we consider "problems")

3.) Economic development and increase of the standard of living in the ME should become a primary goal of the west.

4.) Establishment of secular institutions, including education, should be a primary goal of the west.

5.) International co-operation on tracking "money trails" of terrorist and taking action against the source should become a primary goal of the west. Should this lead to friendly governments (i.e. Saudi Arabia for example) then economic retaliation should be taken.

Summary

The issues involved here are far deeper than the presence of western troops in the ME or the international efforts of AQ. The problem is one that is nearly irreducible. It is extremely naive for anyone to link AQ attacks to eithier Iraq or Afghanistan. They are merely the justification of the moment for AQ. The attacks would be in place as long as AQ's atated goals are unmet. The only relationship may be the selection of current targets, but not the fact that targets would be being selected.

To be successful in the long run, the west must couple their economic need with economic, political, and rule of law development in the ME. Until this happens, over the long term, we will continue to see an active and politically influential AQ.

	09-07-2005 19:40									#197
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I though you labelled me the enemy

Only from the point of view of fanatical Islamic terrorists. Not my point of view.

	09-07-2005 19:46									#198
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney no one is saying that the tories were perfect (far from it), but you can't seriously be suggesting that they have anything on this lot.

Let me recommend a book that might help on this subject- "Freedom under Thatcher" by Keith Ewing and Conor Gearty. It might cause you to reconsider your stance- particularly the sections on police and judicial tactics used during the miners strike.

	09-07-2005 20:12									#199
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apparently the driver of the bus that got blown up was greek. he is protected by the police in his house since the english say he is a very important witness. (why is he protected?! who would harrm him?) he is living in london for 3 years with his greekcypriot wife and he called his mother to say he is alright. his wife said that he said that he saw 2 people dieying and that a girl died in his arms. she said she had never saw him that shocked. he was yellow. he's been instructed not to talk to journalists apparenlty. it wasnt his day to be at work, he accepted to facilitate a collegue of him that said he couldnt work that day

	09-07-2005 20:28									#200
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PLATO,

quote: Stabilize the flow and production of oil from the Middle East

The price of oil is now part of the equation. The consistently increasing import of oil by China is changing the total picture. The West cannot deprive China from the oil it needs. The price will continue to increase at the detriment of the West. The military occupation of countries producing oil, if feasible, will not be accepted by the world. The consequence would be an extremely high price of oil aggravated by a production not sufficient to meet all needs.
In other words, we would have an energy problem in addition to the AQ problem which is supposed not to be modified by the new situation.

	09-07-2005 20:35									#201
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The best solutions is, of course, ween the West off of its oil dependence..

	09-07-2005 20:36									#202
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 (why is he protected?! who would harrm him?)

The terrorists, perhaps?

	09-07-2005 20:37									#203
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Oh hell, I may as well admit it. There's no reason for us to protect him, we just like locking Greeks up for no reason.

	09-07-2005 20:38									#204
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The best solutions is, of course, ween the West off of its oil dependence..

Total agreement, and it will happen, one way or another. I'm looking forward to see what the state of hydrogen will be in 10-20 years. Big gains there could do much to accomplish that very goal, but at present, it's too early to tell.

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2005 20:39									#205
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Oh hell, I may as well admit it. There's no reason for us to protect him, we just like locking Greeks up for no reason.

FP!

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2005 20:40									#206
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet The terrorists, perhaps?

pfff. right. They probably don't even know who he is.

	09-07-2005 20:40									#207
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DAVOUT,

I agree that the increase in worldwide consumption of oil is an issue and that the west should not attempt to curtail the supply to China. I also feel that it would be unnecessary to occupy the oil producing countries to "stabilize the flow and production". The ME is not pumping at capacity and the increase in demand will obtain a new equilibrium wrt price.

However, the situation changes should the oil flow stop. The world would indeed support an occupation of limited time to restore oil flow. The West and The East would have no choice as they would be unwilling to accept economic collapse. This situation is, IMO, unlikely to develop. Should AQ achieve its goal of a pan-Islamic state with no foriegn influence in the region, then this problem would be one of concern. My point is, that the West will not allow this to happen within the forseeable future. Thus, the conflicting goals will ensure that the conflict continues.

The solution can only be the erosion of the base from which AQ gets its support (no pun intended!). This can, IMO, only be obtained through raising the presurre on ME states to become more democratic and secular.

	09-07-2005 20:43									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'm looking forward to see what the state of hydrogen will be in 10-20 years.

Gaseous, most likely.

	09-07-2005 20:49									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin The best solutions is, of course, ween the West off of its oil dependence..

Dauphin, while I agree in principle, this solution offers its own problems.

Unless the replacement energy source is cheaper than oil, then you are still likely to have developing economies coming up through the increased use of oil. For example, is China likely to convert to a new source if it is more expensive? Is India?

This will create a new political dynamic in the ME as the west will begin to loose interest in the region. China and India may well not be in a position to carry the same political influence that the west currently does. Without political influence then their military options for ensuring their flow of energy become more important. This could lead to some devastating and unforseen consequences.

A replacement energy source for oil must be cheap, efficient, and internationally available to not impact the ME situation is a negative way.

	09-07-2005 20:54									#210
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President Bush has repeatedly stressed that U.S. dependancy on foreign oil (and fossil fuels in a wider sense) is both a national security and economic concern in a long term perspective. I think we'll see the U.S. lead the way into researching substitute sources of energy in the near future, on a much larger scale than today.