13-07-2005 21:14									#31
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Stalin, īcause he was in Civ1(those were the days... ), which i think is a major argument, and because is is militaristic, as opposed to Peter the Great, which with his builder and cultured personality would make a great second leader.

	13-07-2005 21:29									#32
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Stalin's not going to happen anyway .

	13-07-2005 21:34									#33
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Why not? He was in Civ1, and it seems Firaxis is going back to the roots in several fields for Civ4.

	13-07-2005 21:38									#34
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I posted a lengthy explanation in another thread and am too lazy to go for it now, but short answer is that Civ1 was unavailable on the Soviet and Eastern market, while Civ4 is, and there are tons of people in ex-USSR and ex-Soviet block who would be offended by Stalin for numerous reasons.

	13-07-2005 21:44									#35
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....and? If all possible offensive parts of a game was removed, any game would have to be cancelled. Besides, Stalin is pretty well liked among at least parts of the population over there according to a couple of articles Iīve read, and his popularity is on the rise too. But anyhow, I donīt see this as a very good argument.

	13-07-2005 21:49									#36
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It is a good argument. There are different offenses. There are indeed many people who don't want to play a game with Stalin or Hitler in it, believe me. Besides, Civ doesn't really have lots of offensive elements. The most offensive stuff it has are abstract concepts such as slavery. However, Stalin is a real person and many people around here have lost family members thanks to him. Consider whether you'd want Stalin in Civ4 if Stalin had ordered your grandparents shot.

	13-07-2005 21:57									#37
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Well I suppose the same discussion could erupt over numerous leaders - Spanish wouldn't like Napoleon too much, some yugoslavian nations could dislike Suleiman The Great and so on.

Of course Stalin is one of the brightest examples, but still, he was a well-known and bright leader who left quite an impact on history..

	13-07-2005 22:02									#38
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There is a huge difference. How many people are there now who lost immediate family members to Napoleon? None. Napoleon was 200 years ago. Stalin died 50 years ago. You live in Latvia after all so should know no worse than me how many people are here who suffered direct losses from Stalin. And the same is true for Russia, Poland or Czech Republic, only in much bigger numbers.

	13-07-2005 22:05									#39
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Now you see how people gain popularity by time..

quote: his popularity is on the rise

	13-07-2005 22:08									#40
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Sure, what we need is more nacbols right now...

I liked one point made on CFC about Hitler. A poster said that in the eyes of nutter Nazi supporters, having Hitler in the game will further serve to validate his actions and make him a hero figure.

	13-07-2005 22:31									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Solver I liked one point made on CFC about Hitler. A poster said that in the eyes of nutter Nazi supporters, having Hitler in the game will further serve to validate his actions and make him a hero figure.

that's imho a pretty weak argument.
those idiots already believe their hero's actions were valid, so this wouldn't change that.

and for people being offended: we see where that argument leads to in many western worlds: everything gets censored (just for an example: going that far that even teri hatcher's nipple visible through her blouse have to be retouched away because some retarded fanatics feel offended by seeing them)...

civilization leaders is about "great" leaders. but great leaders does not at all imply "good" leaders. in fact, most of the great historical leaders were brutal, evil, bloodthirsty and powerhungry people... with ghengis khan probably the worst of them all but also other warmongers (mao, caesar, napoleon, alexander, etc, etc, etc.)

imho a game that claims to simulate the real world should also do so without having to care about some people's views.

that being said, i still think bismarck is a worthy german leader

	13-07-2005 22:35									#42
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And Civ however remains a game. As such, it needs to give people fun. And people have more fun if they're not being offended. Plus, Hitler or Stalin would hurt sales.

I ask you to really imagine this on a personal level. If the game was to depict a leader who ordered your grandparents (or parents if you're 40+) shot, would you want that leader to be in the game?

	14-07-2005 03:47									#43
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Peter I and Lenin. Both being builder/thinkers. Both making massive (mostly positive) changes to Russia.

	14-07-2005 10:30									#44
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Lenin, because he was the first of the Soviet leaders.

And Catherine, because the game needs more chicks as leaders.

	14-07-2005 14:15									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Lenin, because he was the first of the Soviet leaders. And Catherine, because the game needs more chicks as leaders.

Lenin was prettier.

	14-07-2005 20:46									#46
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Lenin was just as evil as Stalin mind you, so if we are to axe Stalin, weīd have to axe Lenin to...

	14-07-2005 20:52									#47
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Nope, this isn't true.

	14-07-2005 21:01									#48
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Oh yes it is. He was responsible for lots of suffering and killings, and never historical research has reveiled that he was no better than Stalin. But he thankfully died before he could do too mujch damage himself, that was Stalinīs faith to do...

	14-07-2005 21:05									#49
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quote: Nope, this isn't true.

Sure it is.

Now you see how glorification affects you.
Also how the "popularity rise over time" effect works.

It's all the same for many past leaders, somehow people just tend to forget.

	15-07-2005 02:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Oh yes it is. He was responsible for lots of suffering and killings, and never historical research has reveiled that he was no better than Stalin. But he thankfully died before he could do too mujch damage himself, that was Stalinīs faith to do...

You mean the revisionist propaganda put forth by old apparatchiks such as Dmitry Volkogonov and commie haters like Richard Pipes?

Lenin was by no means innocent, but he was no mass murdering son of a ***** like Stalin and his ilk.

	15-07-2005 17:02									#51
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Gorbatshev

Or Catherine the Great:

	15-07-2005 20:38									#52
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Attachment: dvd_borisgodunov.jpeg
This has been downloaded 88 time(s).

	15-07-2005 21:08									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg You mean the revisionist propaganda put forth by old apparatchiks such as Dmitry Volkogonov and commie haters like Richard Pipes? Lenin was by no means innocent, but he was no mass murdering son of a ***** like Stalin and his ilk.

Lenin, IMHO, is just like other politicians and leader. A regular SOB.
But Stalin, Hitker, Pol Pot and some others are different...

	15-07-2005 21:27									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg You mean the revisionist propaganda put forth by old apparatchiks such as Dmitry Volkogonov and commie haters like Richard Pipes? Lenin was by no means innocent, but he was no mass murdering son of a ***** like Stalin and his ilk.

I mean like what my teacher on my old school gave us teaching of from a few sources. Lenin was an *******, no better than any other bolschevik leader.

	15-07-2005 21:47									#55
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Yeah, let's compare what the Russian people felt about Lenin while living under him as opposed to Stalin. I'm sure there will be no difference. [/HEAVY SARCASM]

	16-07-2005 00:31									#56
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I whent with Stalin and Peter, that gives a good contrast between an Agressive/Momentum AI and a Passive/Builder AI (I would expect a similar split beteween all the 2 ruler Civs). It apears my vote edged Stalin into the lead as well

Catherine and Lenin are definatly our 2 runners up and I think it would be wonderfull if they were included as well **wink wink Moder**

	16-07-2005 03:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai I mean like what my teacher on my old school gave us teaching of from a few sources. Lenin was an *******, no better than any other bolschevik leader.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall textbooks on the subject became increasingly hostile to Lenin and the early stages of the Soviet Republic. Equating Lenin with Stalin and others would ensure that the progress made between 1917-1924 was smeared with the atrocities of the Stalin era. Thus removing support for any kind of democratic socialism as well.

Or did you think that textbooks are unbiased and objective?

	16-07-2005 14:55									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Darling, I'm sure Victoria's Secret must be paying huge amounts in sponsorship for you to wear that kind of nightie....


Have you considered something shorter, in ermine ?

	17-07-2005 12:48									#59
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Lenin was more like Trotsky, not more like Stalin.

	17-07-2005 12:58									#60
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Peter the Great