17-07-2005 15:07									#61
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Vince278

	17-07-2005 18:14									#62
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BTW, I see no complaints for having Mao in, and he was no better than Stalin.

Zoidberg: Unbiased? No.

	17-07-2005 21:02									#63
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Peter the Great and Lenin, both reformed the Russian empire dramaticaly.

	18-07-2005 00:34									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai BTW, I see no complaints for having Mao in, and he was no better than Stalin.

Mao has better reputation than Stalin. He was a warrior-poet/dictator while Stalin was just a paranoid massmurderer/dictator devoid of any redeeming traits. Ask Urban Ranger

	18-07-2005 18:14									#65
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Kylie

	19-07-2005 11:51									#66
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Darling, I'm sure Victoria's Secret must be paying huge amounts in sponsorship for you to wear that kind of nightie.... Have you considered something shorter, in ermine ?

I actually own that film on DVD. How about you?

	20-07-2005 19:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Mao has better reputation than Stalin. He was a warrior-poet/dictator while Stalin was just a paranoid massmurderer/dictator devoid of any redeeming traits. Ask Urban Ranger

Well, to be such a lovely poet, he surely caused the killings of lots of people.

	20-07-2005 20:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Well, to be such a lovely poet, he surely caused the killings of lots of people.

And Hitler was a painter. See any pattern here?

	20-07-2005 20:20									#69
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Teh Lenin, of course.

Peter the Great and Ivan the Terrible would also be good choices.

	20-07-2005 22:40									#70
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Not Lenin, he introduced 70 years of a damaging economic and political system to Russia...from which it will take them decades to recover. Not exactly the quality of a great leader if you ask me.

I picked Peter the Great and Ivan the Terrible. Catherine would be ok too. So would bananas for that matter

	20-07-2005 22:45									#71
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My personal opinion is that Ivan IV and Peter I are the best choices, though I can also see Catherine II or Lenin making it in.

I really don't think we'll ever see Stalin again. And if China ever opens up to Civilization games, that'll be the end of Mao in Civ too (for multiple reasons).

	20-07-2005 22:48									#72
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Well, Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great have the best contrast, I think (Destructive vs. constructive), though Catherine the Great would do in a pinch (I just hope they get her right this time -- Civ3's Catherine looked nothing like her!).

Lenin is iffy, but he was in Civ2 (though Stalin was in CIv1).

	21-07-2005 02:36									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Well, to be such a lovely poet, he surely caused the killings of lots of people.

Yes he did. But that´s not the point.

	21-07-2005 02:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon And Hitler was a painter. See any pattern here?

Mao was a far better poet than Hitler was a painter. But again that´s not the point

	21-07-2005 03:32									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Mace Not Lenin, he introduced 70 years of a damaging economic and political system to Russia...from which it will take them decades to recover. Not exactly the quality of a great leader if you ask me. I picked Peter the Great and Ivan the Terrible. Catherine would be ok too. So would bananas for that matter

Wait... Lenin isn't a "great leader," but Ivan the Terrible was?

	21-07-2005 03:37									#76
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Ivan the Terrible wasn´t a heathen commie...

	21-07-2005 05:49									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wait... Lenin isn't a "great leader," but Ivan the Terrible was?

These don't necessarily count as "great leaders."

Rather, "recognizable, politically correct, inoffensive to living people who might buy the game (ie. not like Stalin or Hitler), symbolic, potentially diverse in the case of two, leaders."

Confused? I sure am.

	21-07-2005 18:33									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wait... Lenin isn't a "great leader," but Ivan the Terrible was?

He was terrible because he succumbed to madness in his later reign and then did a few terrible mistakes, such as killing his own son, but I believe he was one of the Muscowite leaders that had most impact on how Russia became a rising power.

	21-07-2005 23:25									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai He was terrible because he succumbed to madness in his later reign and then did a few terrible mistakes, such as killing his own son, but I believe he was one of the Muscowite leaders that had most impact on how Russia became a rising power.

Nope. Whatever gains he made in his early reign were rendered moot by the devastation his later reign caused Russia. Upon his death, the country was in tatters thanks to the disastrous Livonian war, and the Oprichniks now were thugs, contributing to depopulation and famine. He turned the richest part of Russia into the poorest and murdered the entire population of Novgorod.

It took Ivan's successor to rectify much of the damage done during his reign. While the tsar who succeeded him was Feodor I (an imbecile who wouldn't have otherwise ruled if Ivan hadn't murdered his eldest son and heir), this rectifying was the work of Feodor's regent. Who was that man?

Why, Boris Godunov.

	22-07-2005 02:59									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wait... Lenin isn't a "great leader," but Ivan the Terrible was?

Did I ever say Ivan the Terrible was a "great leader"??
hmm?

	22-07-2005 09:10									#81
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We're probably confusing "Great Leaders" for what they represent. Civ made the selection based on their being an easily recognizable icon for their civ. Certainly, many of these leaders (especially the Russian leaders) are far from being "Great".

Of course, PC has a little to do with it. Few leaders in the 20th century are as easily recognizable as Hitler yet he should never be included (which could be a thread topic all by itself).

	22-07-2005 17:39									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Mace Did I ever say Ivan the Terrible was a "great leader"?? hmm?

Basically, yes.

	23-07-2005 02:54									#83
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but not specifically

	23-07-2005 20:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I actually own that film on DVD. How about you?

No.

However I do actually own 'The End of St Petersburg', 'Alexander Nevski', 'Storm Over Asia', 'Battleship Potemkin' 'Que Viva Mexico!' and 'The Fall of the Romanoffs ' and 'Dersu Uzala'.

And I'm thinking of acquiring 'Man With A Movie Camera'

	24-07-2005 07:24									#85
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Battleship Potemkin

	24-07-2005 08:39									#86
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A big talking matrioska

	24-07-2005 09:06									#87
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The Russian movie about the defense of Stalingrad was good (though the name escapes me). Also, the movie about the fall of Berlin and Stalin's (fictional) trip there was the pinnacle of propaganda movies of the time.

	25-07-2005 07:47									#88
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I think anyone woud be better than Catherine. The only reason she was in civ 3 is because firaxis didn't want to leave women out (not realizing that historically speaking, women have been left out.) It's stupid to make someone a leader just becaue of their gender. I think that Lenin, Ivan IV, and Stalin are good choices. Lenin and Ivan because they were the most influential in Russian history, and Stalin because he is the most recognizable and most well known.

	25-07-2005 14:00									#89
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quote: Originally posted by evilnerd15 I think anyone woud be better than Catherine. The only reason she was in civ 3 is because firaxis didn't want to leave women out (not realizing that historically speaking, women have been left out.) It's stupid to make someone a leader just becaue of their gender. I think that Lenin, Ivan IV, and Stalin are good choices. Lenin and Ivan because they were the most influential in Russian history, and Stalin because he is the most recognizable and most well known.

The reason she's in is because in the 18th Century Russia had a series of stunningly incompetent male rulers and ruthless and more than competent female rulers. May I suggest you read a biography of Catherine before jumping to such erroneous conclusions.

	25-07-2005 23:00									#90
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Catherine wasn't called "The Great" for nothing..
she was a hoss

Women as leaders? Certainly some are appropriate. (Jeanne d'Arc vs. the sun king vs. Napolean is debateable)