09-07-2005 05:51									#1
	Mali Delenda Est Get a bigger avatar today!

I object to the inclusion of the Malinese Civ into Civ4 at the expense of some other Civ which in all likelihood contributed much more to world society and would also be much cooler to play.

I refer to the esteemed Roman politician Cato the Elder. Here is an excerpt from his biography as found on wikipedia.com.

"Almost his last public act was to urge his countrymen to the Third Punic War and the destruction of Carthage. In 157 he was one of the deputies sent to Carthage to arbitrate between the Carthaginians and Massinissa, king of Numidia. The mission was unsuccessful and the commissioners returned home. But Cato was so struck by the evidences of Carthaginian prosperity that he was convinced that the security of Rome depended on the annihilation of Carthage. From this time, in season and out of season, he kept repeating the cry: 'Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.' (Moreover, I advise that Carthage should be destroyed. - Plutarch, Life of Cato) He was known for saying this at the conclusion of each of his speeches." - wikipedia.com

In addition, upon the destruction of the city of Carthage, Cato purportedly uttered the following: "Carthago Delenda Est," meaning "Carthage is destroyed."

Therefore, in protest to the inclusion of Mali into Civ4, I shall now be including the following statement into my signature: "Ceterum censeo Malinem esse delendam."

Thank you for you time. Please relegate Mali to the third expansion pack. Or the fourth. -Alexander01

P.S.

Last edited by Alexander01 on 09-07-2005 at 08:08

	09-07-2005 06:31									#2
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Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant.

	09-07-2005 07:38									#3
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Of fer crying out loud, hasn't this topic been beaten to a bloody death several times over?

	09-07-2005 07:53									#4
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Please excuse my ignorance: How does Carthage relate to the Mali, other than both were based in Africa??

Assuming no one is accusing Carthage and Mali being one and the same; with Carthage in Civ3 (and contributing so much to the Roman Empire by challenging it to their peril), why not switch to the Mali?
I obviously know little of them and their inclusion into the game will help to relieve that.

Addendum: See, their inclusion in the game has already helped me relieve some of my ignorance of them!
Civilizations in Africa: Mali

Last edited by Jaybe on 09-07-2005 at 08:01

	09-07-2005 08:05									#5
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My point -- I was being tongue in cheek;

"Moreover, I advise that Mali should be destroyed."

	09-07-2005 08:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 My point -- I was being tongue in cheek; "Moreover, I advise that Mali should be destroyed."

Don't you have to have a "tongue in cheek" smiley (or other graphic) to be tongue in cheek?


I suppose you like to play Rome on an Earth map, starting on the seven hills of course. Should make any Mali in sub-saharan Africa easy pickin's.

	09-07-2005 09:22									#7
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I'm surprised to see how quickly Mali has lost respect.

	09-07-2005 09:29									#8
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If you want the Mali to have more respect, you will probably have to BE Mali when you play the game.

	09-07-2005 09:56									#9
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My computer already respects me.

	09-07-2005 10:31									#10
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Mali is probably a better inclusion than the Zulu, since it was a more urban civilization in the sense that the Civ series tends to celebrate. Just because it is not particularly known in the Western sense does not decrease its value or importance to the African continent.

I might have preferred a broader Bantu civilization, but in fairness such a thing never really existed.

	09-07-2005 10:34									#11
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Jesus... Civ is supposed to be encompase human history, not just those histories that Westerners like to hear about. The Malinese civ is worthy of inclusion and at its height was just as great as the Aztec and Inca civs. Since it was in Africa, we just don't care enough about it.

Besides, Africa is a big continent and has many people. It deserves more than one civ.

Some reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

quote: Sundiata's grandnephew, Mansa Kankan Musa I or Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the world's gold.

quote: On his pilgrimage to Mecca, Musa gave gold away generously. When he passed through Cairo, he gave out so much gold that the price of gold didn't recover for 20 years.

	09-07-2005 10:37									#12
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Thank you, Imran.

	09-07-2005 11:07									#13
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I've always thought ancient Zimbabwe to be a worthy addition.

	09-07-2005 12:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Jesus... Civ is supposed to be encompase human history, not just those histories that Westerners like to hear about. The Malinese civ is worthy of inclusion and at its height was just as great as the Aztec and Inca civs. Since it was in Africa, we just don't care enough about it. Besides, Africa is a big continent and has many people. It deserves more than one civ. Some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire quote: Sundiata's grandnephew, Mansa Kankan Musa I or Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the world's gold. quote: On his pilgrimage to Mecca, Musa gave gold away generously. When he passed through Cairo, he gave out so much gold that the price of gold didn't recover for 20 years.

While we're at it, why don't we just add the Ethiopian kingdom of Prester John!!!

	09-07-2005 17:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 While we're at it, why don't we just add the Ethiopian kingdom of Prester John!!!

Because that would be introducing a mythological figure, unlike the real world's Mansa Musa, whose empire was greater in size than the Holy Roman Empire.

The gold from Malian mines set the gold standard for the coinage of Western Europe and Mali was a part of an international trading system that stretched from West Africa to Canton. Malian gold played a part in the revived post-Black Death economies of Western Europe and in the Mameluke state in Egypt.

	09-07-2005 20:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Because that would be introducing a mythological figure, unlike the real world's Mansa Musa, whose empire was greater in size than the Holy Roman Empire.

Mythological Figures. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened in Civ. Let's see... how about Hippolyta, Ishtar, Dido, Amaterasu, Scheherazade, Shakala (who was actually invented by the devs), Gilgamesh and Eleanor Roosevelt?

Besides, everyone knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire.

	09-07-2005 21:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Besides, everyone knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire.

In scope it perhaps was for the people of it's time.

	09-07-2005 21:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder In scope it perhaps was for the people of it's time.

I doubt it. My ancestors considered themselves Badensers, rather than members of a greater German realm.

	09-07-2005 21:35									#19
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Personally, I object to the number of redundant european civs when other continents are lucky to even be represented at all.

	09-07-2005 21:41									#20
	Re: Mali Delenda Est Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 "In addition, upon the destruction of the city of Carthage, Cato purportedly uttered the following: "Carthago Delenda Est," meaning "Carthage is destroyed."

'Delenda est' is a Passive Periphrastic Conjugation. So 'Carthago delenda est' means 'Cathage should be destroyed'.

It does NOT mean 'carthage is destroyed'.

As for Mali, don't be such a white boy. Plenty of stuff was going on in the world while the Europeans were still a backwards and superstitious people. Mali was prospering while Euors were killing off all the cats because cats were agents of the devil. Too bad that lead to an increase of the rat popultion - with fleas carrying the black plague.

	09-07-2005 22:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Mythological Figures. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened in Civ. Let's see... how about Hippolyta, ..., ..., and Eleanor Roosevelt?

Eleanor's mythological?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Roosevelt

	09-07-2005 22:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar 'Delenda est' is a Passive Periphrastic Conjugation. So 'Carthago delenda est' means 'Cathage should be destroyed'. It does NOT mean 'carthage is destroyed'. As for Mali, don't be such a white boy. Plenty of stuff was going on in the world while the Europeans were still a backwards and superstitious people. Mali was prospering while Euors were killing off all the cats because cats were agents of the devil. Too bad that lead to an increase of the rat popultion - with fleas carrying the black plague.

Thank you for the Latin lesson.

As for Mali, the last time I checked, it now constitutes the poorest region of the world. If they had fifth world countries, this would be it. The descendants of the Europeans dominated the entire globe, while the great Malinese capital of Timbuktu is a festering heap of dust and sand that would be lucky not to melt in a rainstorm. Oh, wait. It doesn't ever rain there. I guess, I should say it's lucky that it doesn't blow away in a stiff breeze. Where's all the gold now?

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

	09-07-2005 22:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower Eleanor's mythological? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Roosevelt

Yes. Yes, she is.

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

	09-07-2005 22:22									#24
	Re: Re: Mali Delenda Est Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by The Templar 'Delenda est' is a Passive Periphrastic Conjugation. So 'Carthago delenda est' means 'Cathage should be destroyed'. It does NOT mean 'carthage is destroyed'. As for Mali, don't be such a white boy. Plenty of stuff was going on in the world while the Europeans were still a backwards and superstitious people. Mali was prospering while Euors were killing off all the cats because cats were agents of the devil. Too bad that lead to an increase of the rat popultion - with fleas carrying the black plague.

Wow! I'm impressed! My 12 years old son will start to learn Latin next month (he's a History freak... ). He just loved this thread!
Talking about learn something...How should we say "Cathargo is destroyed"?

(sorry about my bad english )

Edited:

Btw, keep Mali in!

	09-07-2005 22:24									#25
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Carthage is destroyed. Haven't you heard? Latin is a dead language.

	09-07-2005 22:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 As for Mali, the last time I checked, it now constitutes the poorest region of the world. If they had fifth world countries, this would be it. The descendants of the Europeans dominated the entire globe, while the great Malinese capital of Timbuktu is a festering heap of dust and sand that would be lucky not to melt in a rainstorm. Oh, wait. It doesn't ever rain there. I guess, I should say it's lucky that it doesn't blow away in a stiff breeze. Where's all the gold now?

Then you can as well dismiss all the meso-american civs and quite a few other classic ones, for they're not 'great' anymore.

	09-07-2005 22:34									#27
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It's hard to justify europe having more than one, maybe two, civs given the small size of europe in the world, the similarities between the "different" civs represented in the game, and their dependance on other civilization's achievements.

While Asia, Africa, and South America all have a much more diverse selection of civilizations which are completely neglected.

	09-07-2005 22:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower Carthage is destroyed. Haven't you heard? Latin is a dead language.

I have some comics (Mickey Mouse) somewhere edited in Latin. Not to mention the academic life. Or the Catholic Church. Still in use in many sciences.
It's a dead language, but left a very active ghost

	09-07-2005 22:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's hard to justify europe having more than one, maybe two, civs given the small size of europe in the world, the similarities between the "different" civs represented in the game, and their dependance on other civilization's achievements. While Asia, Africa, and South America all have a much more diverse selection of civilizations which are completely neglected.

Would be an interesting list of civs. Egypt, Greece, Vikings, Thai, Japan, China, Arabs, Zulu, Mali, Inca, Nasca, Anasazi, Inuit, Russia, Maori .

	09-07-2005 23:07									#30
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Mali:

Alexander01's Euro-centrism: