12-07-2005 01:00									#91
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quote: As for the Incas, they were more advanced than people often give them credit for. Don't compare the Malinese at their zenith with the Incas at their point of collapse.

I'm not. At both their peaks Mali pwned the Incas.

quote: Here's some of the Incas' accomplishments: brain surgery using hardened copper and obsidian tools, 30,000 km of efficient roads, the civil service, a form of due process, constructing Machu Picchu in the mountains, in addition to being the dominant military power in their region.

This beats Mali how? And how does that impact the modern world in any way?

Maybe you aren't as Euro-centric as you are anti-African. People seem to slam the accomplishments of the "Dark Continent" as much as they can while holding up the tribes of the Americas. It seems as if people keep telling themselves that no one in Africa could have done anything worthwile to include themselves in such a game.

	12-07-2005 01:16									#92
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Africa is the birthplace of humanity. To say " Africa has had a much much smaller impact on the world than basically everyone else" is beyond ridiculous.

	12-07-2005 03:24									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm not. At both their peaks Mali pwned the Incas.

Please don't write posts like a cellphone text message. Saying "pwned" doesn't strengthen your argument.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui This beats Mali how? And how does that impact the modern world in any way?

This is a moot point, because Mali hasn't had any big effect on the modern world either. Therefore, one must judge them by their impact on their day.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to make 30,000 km of roads in the Andes, especially for that era?! That's quite a feat.

Anyway, as I've said before, who would you bet on in a cagematch? The Incas, a highly militaristic culture, millions of people spread across the western half of South America, or the Malinese, a confederation of trading cities in the sub-Saharan sahel with gold and camels who were destroyed by disunited Morocco, of all people.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Maybe you aren't as Euro-centric as you are anti-African.

Well, it depends on your definition. If you mean I hate black people, the answer is no. If you mean that after having studying all the civilizations of the world, I find many of Africa's contributions to the world to be less substantial than those of other civilizations, then yes. But I would clarify - I am Anti-Mali in Civ4. Calling me other names presents some interesting value judgments, especially when based on vague assumptions.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui People seem to slam the accomplishments of the "Dark Continent" as much as they can while holding up the tribes of the Americas. It seems as if people keep telling themselves that no one in Africa could have done anything worthwile to include themselves in such a game.

I'm not "people." Do not make assumptions about what I think based on anything anyone has said to you in the past, rather only upon the things that I say.

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

	12-07-2005 03:28									#94
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Africa is the birthplace of humanity. To say " Africa has had a much much smaller impact on the world than basically everyone else" is beyond ridiculous.

This is relevent how? The game we're talking about is called "Civilization," not "the Hazy Mists of Millions of Years Ago." In recorded history, which is what we're talking about, Africa has had substantially less influence in the world than ANY other people. (At least, any other people that we're actually considering for Civ4. I mean, I'm sure Mali's achievements are greater than Melanesia's.)

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Mali is greater than the Ottoman Empire.

	12-07-2005 19:08									#95
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I really don't see why we can't all have a reasonable discussion about this topic.

We can discuss any issue and disagree completely without the need for any personal attacks or name-calling.

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

	12-07-2005 19:14									#96
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Well, let's open another can of worms then:

There should at least one 'black' african civ be included just for the sake of proper representation of all of humanity in al it's colors and shapes.

	12-07-2005 20:16									#97
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Well, let's open another can of worms then: There should at least one 'black' african civ be included just for the sake of proper representation of all of humanity in al it's colors and shapes.

Why? They don't include the Australoids (Aborigines, Pacific Islanders) or the Capoids (African Bushmen), so why Negroids only for diversity? Why not the freaking Inuit, for goodness' sake?

Explain to me why every race should be included? Once again, this game is entitled "Civilization IV," not "the Every Race Make Everybody Happy Game."

I don't care what race a civ is, it simply needs to meet certain criteria.

Political correctness might make some people feel good but it does not accurately represent anything.

	12-07-2005 20:20									#98
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quote: Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell Why not the freaking Inuit, for goodness' sake?

Indeed, why not?

	12-07-2005 20:26									#99
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Indeed, why not?

Because they freaking live in IGLOOS, that's why!

	12-07-2005 21:30									#100
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quote: Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell Explain to me why every race should be included? Once again, this game is entitled "Civilization IV," not "the Every Race Make Everybody Happy Game."

Civ IV will also be moddable, and for the more casual modder (or scenariomaker if you want) it is easier to have the representative 'races' on Earth, that's the main reason for me.

I don't give a damn about political correctness for the simple reason that it is only 'fashion' of a given timeframe.

	12-07-2005 21:35									#101
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quote: Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell I don't care what race a civ is, it simply needs to meet certain criteria.

The Mali brought literacy, organized religion, organized government, urbanism and trade in a region that was largely devoid of it all. They civilized the place. Please tell me how they aren't a civilization, I'm curious.

quote: Political correctness might make some people feel good but it does not accurately represent anything.

Since when did Civ represent anything accurately?

	12-07-2005 22:45									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The Mali brought literacy, organized religion, organized government, urbanism and trade in a region that was largely devoid of it all. They civilized the place. Please tell me how they aren't a civilization, I'm curious. Since when did Civ represent anything accurately?

I never said they aren't a civilization! In fact, I think it was mentioned earlier that they most assuredly are.

However, my point remains that I do not rate it in the top 18 civs. With limited spots available, I think the top 18 civs in world history deserve to be in the first version of Civ4. Put Mali in an expansion.

And despite all of the Malinese achievements you list, the Ottomans outdid them in every last one of those, and they are being left out.

	12-07-2005 22:46									#103
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quote: Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell Because they freaking live in IGLOOS, that's why!

That just shows their ingenuity.

	12-07-2005 22:48									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 To the contrary, I've studied sub-saharan African civilizations to a great extent, including Mali, Songhai, Ghana, in addition to Benin, Kush, Axum, Meroe, Great Zimbabwe and the Bantu. I find them all quite fascinating. Nobody is saying that they aren't civilizations, as they most certainly are, only that they do not merit inclusion in Civ4. (At least, not until the expansions.) My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world. I am not attempting to belittle Mali in any way, I just don't think they stand up to the towering, monolithic likes of China, India, or Persia, all of which have had a massive undisputed (and undisputable) impact on the entire world. Furthermore, Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

I believe that I posted this earlier. Mali is definitely a civilization. Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

	12-07-2005 23:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I really don't see why we can't all have a reasonable discussion about this topic. We can discuss any issue and disagree completely without the need for any personal attacks or name-calling. Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

Constantly repeating that catch phrase does not help to achieve a reasonable discussion.

	12-07-2005 23:38									#106
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Worked for Cato

	13-07-2005 00:22									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke Worked for Cato

That was the point.

	13-07-2005 01:21									#108
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Reasonable discussion can be furthered by ignoring threads that have become unreasonable (other than occasional downfalls such as this).

	13-07-2005 06:15									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Reasonable discussion can be furthered by ignoring threads that have become unreasonable (other than occasional downfalls such as this).

I don't think it's been too bad, as long as people realize that we're talking about a computer game.

	13-07-2005 07:20									#110
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I've had many of my civs start on crap land, have temporary success, then be overwhelmed because expansion city sites are crap. A civ can't stand on one city. Soo...since I'm not multiplaying I'll often start again, but don't tell anyone, ok? Mali's problem is they can't find the button to push to start again. Had they had a better starting location they might have ruled the world, and THAT is why they should be in the game. Perhaps not the first game, or the second or even the third, but the fourth...why not?

	13-07-2005 08:00									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I've had many of my civs start on crap land, have temporary success, then be overwhelmed because expansion city sites are crap. A civ can't stand on one city. Soo...since I'm not multiplaying I'll often start again, but don't tell anyone, ok? Mali's problem is they can't find the button to push to start again. Had they had a better starting location they might have ruled the world, and THAT is why they should be in the game. Perhaps not the first game, or the second or even the third, but the fourth...why not?

So? China might have been able to colonize America first. But they didn't. Poland might have been able to not be conquered by everyone else on their continent, but they didn't. The Bushmen might have been able to progress beyond the stone age on their own, but they haven't.

Games built on "what might have been" premises are called "Command & Conquer," not "Civilization."

	13-07-2005 08:13									#112
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Also, had they had better lands to expand into, they would have definitely had more competitors. Who's to say whether or not they would have done as well as they did in such a situation, or whether or not they would have survived? Maybe we only know about them because of where and when their civilization was.

	13-07-2005 09:13									#113
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quote: Please don't write posts like a cellphone text message. Saying "pwned" doesn't strengthen your argument.

Of course it does. It showed the level of beating down the Incas.

quote: Anyway, as I've said before, who would you bet on in a cagematch? The Incas, a highly militaristic culture, millions of people spread across the western half of South America, or the Malinese, a confederation of trading cities in the sub-Saharan sahel with gold and camels who were destroyed by disunited Morocco, of all people.

When did we enter into a wargame? I thought we were deciding on Civ? If we want to make Rise of Nations II, then perhaps the Incas deserve to be in more than the Malinese, but not in Civilization.

Gold has been a very big thing in human history. One king affecting gold prices in Egypt for 20 years by his gifts is far more impressive to me than building of roads, no matter where those roads are.

quote: I find many of Africa's contributions to the world to be less substantial than those of other civilizations

Even apparently inferior civilizations of South America .

quote: I'm not "people." Do not make assumptions about what I think based on anything anyone has said to you in the past, rather only upon the things that I say.

It seems your biased world view comes from what "people" have said.

I think I'll borrow a phrase from you,

The Incas ought to be destroyed (does it work for you?)

	13-07-2005 09:17									#114
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quote: Games built on "what might have been" premises are called "Command & Conquer," not "Civilization."

Actually I thought that Civilization was entirely based on "what might have been"

	13-07-2005 09:23									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Games built on "what might have been" premises are called "Command & Conquer," not "Civilization." Actually I thought that Civilization was entirely based on "what might have been"

Pretty much.

	13-07-2005 09:31									#116
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Btw, including an African Civ is NOT PC. It's an attempt to have diversification of Civs, making the game more enjoyable. If you make all the Civs cookie cutter, what fun is that? I want to be leading different peoples, with different sounding cities.

	13-07-2005 09:40									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When did we enter into a wargame? I thought we were deciding on Civ? If we want to make Rise of Nations II, then perhaps the Incas deserve to be in more than the Malinese, but not in Civilization.

Point 1: The military is not the end-all criterion, but it is A criterion, and you seem to be very dismissive of it. Remember, Civilization games have dozens of military units available for training, and almost none of any other variety.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Gold has been a very big thing in human history. One king affecting gold prices in Egypt for 20 years by his gifts is far more impressive to me than building of roads, no matter where those roads are.

Point 2: First of all, the amount of precious metals in someone's territory does not mean someone is going to be great, but even if it did, consider how many billions and billions of dollars worth of both gold and silver bullion were extracted out of their empire after the Spanish arrived? And that's not even counting what came before. Affecting one faltering country's gold market for 20 years is nothing compared to Incan gold altering the precious metals market of the world for centuries.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It seems your biased world view comes from what "people" have said. I think I'll borrow a phrase from you, The Incas ought to be destroyed (does it work for you?)

Point 3: Well, my modified Cato statement is meant as a running gag. As for your statement of "biased world view," I have gained all of my information from personal study, and have formed opinions accordingly. Where do you get your information? Google Searches?

Again, don't be so hasty to assault me personally. Attack my arguments and information as much as you want, but it's a poor debater who hurls epithets such as "biased," "stupid" and even "Nazi."

You're attempting to antagonize me on purpose. It won't work.

	13-07-2005 09:52									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually I thought that Civilization was entirely based on "what might have been"

There must be some parameters set. Burkina Faso might have become a world power, but we don't throw them in. Civilization is about building the world's greatest civs, not about Mr. Rogers' Land of Make-Believe, where everyone is the same, with no differences and everyone is worthy of inclusion in one big happy family.

Malinese: "Won't you be my neighbor?"
Ottoman Turks: "Won't you be my court eunuch?"

Inclusion in Civ should be based on a civilization's merit, not on their skin color, race, religion, etc.

"I have a dream, that one day everyone will be judged by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin."

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, including an African Civ is NOT PC. It's an attempt to have diversification of Civs, making the game more enjoyable. If you make all the Civs cookie cutter, what fun is that? I want to be leading different peoples, with different sounding cities.

What do you think PC means? Where do you think the idiotic notion of putting in groups like the Sioux, Iroquois, Zulus, Dutch and Celts comes from, anyway? Trying to have diversification and please everybody. It's so annoying!

Man, you can change the city names for goodness sake! That's been a function since freaking Civ1! Do you call China, India, Britain, Persia, Greece, Rome and America cookie cutter? Each one is very different from the others, and contributed greatly to the outcome of world history.

I wouldn't mind an African civ being in the game if you could find one that actually did something on par with Rome, China or the Ottoman Empire! Good luck, buddy.

	13-07-2005 10:00									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, including an African Civ is NOT PC. It's an attempt to have diversification of Civs, making the game more enjoyable. If you make all the Civs cookie cutter, what fun is that? I want to be leading different peoples, with different sounding cities.

Oh, yes it is! Including a civ because of its race or geographical location and not because of what it actually did to deserve its spot in civ is definitely being PC!

	13-07-2005 10:11									#120
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I just had a thought. One criterion for civs vying for a place in Civ4 should be whether or not they are capable of constructing a Wonder of the World, not necessarily one included in the game, but something on the same scale.

Example:

Wonder of the World: Machu Picchu - massive Incan city in the mountains that would be difficult to construct today.

Not a Wonder of the World: Malinese Ivory Mask - Seriously, people, who really thought that was a wonder of the world?