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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Because China had such an enormous effect on the Americas...
How so? No matter how powerful you are, if you don't have much effect far away, you're just a regional power.
quote:
So Greece under Alexander, Rome, China in the Middle Kingdom, Arabs, Turks, English, Spanish, etc, were all world powers. |
They were not. |
What constitutes "the world" has changed over the course of history.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Actually, "the world" is stayed large and round throughout history. |
I think you are confusing "the world" with "earth"
And if you are doing that, you could follow that logic and say that the USA is not a world power today, because it can not exert it's power beneath the surface of the earth, or in the deepest reachs of the oceans.
But, anyways, the word "world" is much more flexible than that. An author can create worlds simply by writing them down on paper. Thousands of years ago, when the "world was flat" and long distance travel difficult to the extreme, a continent - an island, even -could be a world in it's own right. Numerous worlds existed on earth then, completely impervious to each other's existance.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sophist
That's a pretty short-sighted view. I didn't mean that population was the only thing that mattered, just that it mattered a lot more than dimensions. I mean, by that logic, you could say that the Turks occupied 3 continents and the Chinese only one and the Indians only a sub-continent, so Turks > Chinese > Indians. |
Dimensions with reasonable population matter way more than a bunch of people crammed into a small space. They're still not doing anything but self-influencing, so why should anyone else care?
If it turned out that there were ten billion people living on some island in the middle of nowhere, but they'd never affected anyone else in the entire world, would they deserve to be in as a civ? No.
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I was talking about "things worth remembering" and "no lasting achievements." But you knew that and preferred to make a lame joke. |
We haven't seen anything worth remember, or we'd remember it.
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Wow, what a comment. No wonder other countries don't like us. Yes, I said "us." Maybe you should look past your knee-jerk chauvinism. Winning WWI and WWII sure was nice of us, not that we did it on our own. Those are pretty recent history, too. |
Cut the political crap. If you want to argue that, go to the OT. Stay out of here.
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When you think about what history books 500 years from now will say, well, it's not so clear that the US will get a better treatment than, say, 15th century Poland. |
Yes it is.
Due even more to the US than the British Empire, English has become the new lingua franca of the world. American culture has been absorbed or adopted in every country of the world. America's relative influence in the world is drastically greater than that of any country previously.
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American power is already getting challenged by Chinese power. |
No it's not. Maybe in 30 years it'll be challenged. Now, China just makes crap for us to use.
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The US has been a world power for about 100 years, and unequivocally the world's most powerful country for about 20. America has a long way to go before we match Britain or Rome. |
No it doesn't. Britain and Rome never touched us. In those years we've had more of an influence on world culture and langauge that Rome did in its centuries.
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I see. So pandering to Americans is ok, but not pandering to people who are a little too focused on political correctness? |
PC idiots aren't the major intended audience for the game.
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Maybe Civ should just start in 1500, then. Forget all those ancients; they're old news. What have you done for me lately? |
Once again you fail to understand.
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Really? Persia was pretty big. |
And it's in the game.
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So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom. |
And they were just a cultural offshoot of the Greeks, who are also, by the way, in the game.
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I think it's harder to tell than you think. Chinese and Indian cultures are so fully assimilated so you're not even aware of them. For example, Indian numerals, without which there would be no Western banking tradition. |
Those are Arabic numberals.
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Besides, have you actually been to those places to know that our culture has been exported there? |
Did you actually visit the Greco-Bactrian kingdom to see how big it was?
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I would, but neither telephones nor either of us existed in 500BC. |
In 500BC China had a vast influence on the Americas, Europe, and Africa?
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I could call you now, though; open your eyes and see what China is doing right now. They're going to be #1 in our lifetimes. |
Going to be... so what? They aren't, yet, and nothing is certain.
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Alexander01
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quote:
Originally posted by sophist
Really? Persia was pretty big. So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.
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I never said Persia wasn't. I personally am a fan/student of ancient Persian culture, Zoroastrianism, etc. They definitely belong in.
As for the Greek succesor kingdom in Bactria, I don't see how they're relevant. They're just like the Seleukids, Ptolemids, Antigonids, Attalids, Pontii, and every other successor kingdom, none of which should be in the game due to the redundance that would exist with Greece.
(That concept is why Austria, Byzantium, and the Netherlands shouldn't be in the game.)
Well, Moreover Mali ought to be destroyed. - Alexander01
P.S. What did Menander ever do for the world? Those giant Buddha statues that the Taliban mutilated?
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Alexander01
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Sorry. Accidental Double Post.
Last edited by Alexander01 on 12-07-2005 at 19:19
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sophist
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
And if you are doing that, you could follow that logic and say that the USA is not a world power today, because it can not exert it's power beneath the surface of the earth, or in the deepest reachs of the oceans.
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Not if people don't keep buying those SUVs ;-).
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Cut the political crap. If you want to argue that, go to the OT. Stay out of here.
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He called non-US countries losers and I'm the one spouting political crap? Take some deep breaths.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
American power is already getting challenged by Chinese power. |
No it's not. Maybe in 30 years it'll be challenged. Now, China just makes crap for us to use.
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Read the newspaper. Or a magazine. Newsweek had a big story recently. They're not even #2 yet, but they're a lot more than a cheap factory.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No it doesn't. Britain and Rome never touched us. In those years we've had more of an influence on world culture and langauge that Rome did in its centuries.
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No, in, influence, culture, language, and centuries are all derived from Latin.
You ignoring indirect effects, which are much greater. Rome influenced every European and Middle Eastern power since, well, Roman times. Those influences may have become submerged, but they are many. There were Czars until ninety years ago, rulers who called themselves after a Roman 2000 years dead and gone.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom. |
And they were just a cultural offshoot of the Greeks, who are also, by the way, in the game.
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The English are just an offshoot of the Germans, French, and Romans. And the Americans are just an offshoot of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Those are Arabic numberals.
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Are you sure about that? The truth is just a google search away. Kind of damages your credibility when it comes to debating history.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
Besides, have you actually been to those places to know that our culture has been exported there? |
Did you actually visit the Greco-Bactrian kingdom to see how big it was?
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Nice straw man.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
In 500BC China had a vast influence on the Americas, Europe, and Africa?
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There weren't civilized people in Europe to influence, and, according to some participants in this thread, no civilized people in Africa worth acknowledging ever. As far as the Americas... did Rome have a vast influence there? Yet you count them as a world power.
This is all a distraction. Human history is complex. It's hard to say who influenced what once the time line gets long enough. A influences B who influences C who influences D who never heard of A. That's history. Singling out just one nation ignores that they all have stood on the shoulders of giants (and yes, I know he was taking a shot at Hooke).
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
How so? No matter how powerful you are, if you don't have much effect far away, you're just a regional power. |
Bull. A world power is a country that is one of the most powerful in the world, not one that can affect everyone in the world.
I'll trust the Encylopedia Britannica over you, thanks.
quote:
Those are Arabic numberals. |
... which came originally from India. Thanks for playing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals
quote:
Originally posted by Wikipedia
The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer, since what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs. Instead, they were developed in India by the Hindus around 400 BC. However, because it was Arabs who transmitted this system to the West after the Hindu numerical system found its way to Persia, the numeral system became known as "Arabic". Arabs themselves call the numerals they use "Indian numerals", أرقام هندية, arqam hindiyyah). |
KuciPWNED!
quote:
He called non-US countries losers and I'm the one spouting political crap? Take some deep breaths. |
Eh, don't bother. Kuci doesn't take to being pwned over and over again very well.
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H Tower
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I don't think Kuci notices that he's been pawned, he just keeps on spam, err, I mean posting.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
Eleanor Roosevelt?
Besides, everyone knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire. |
As far as Eleanor Roosevelt being a woman leader of the United States is concerned, yes, she wasn't president- however, she did combat racism and work for civil rights for black Americans, and she was greatly involved in domestic and international politics.
quote:
During Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency, Eleanor Roosevelt was an active First Lady who traveled extensively around the nation, visiting relief projects, surveying working and living conditions, and then reporting her observations to the President. She also exercised her own political and social influence; she became an advocate of the rights and needs of the poor, of minorities, and of the disadvantaged. In World War II, she visited England and the South Pacific to foster good will among the Allies and boost the morale of US servicemen overseas. |
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/erbio.html
If you can find something comparable for the entirely mythological Prester John, I'm sure we'd all be agog at finding it out.
As for the quote from Voltaire- I'm familiar with it, as anyone would be who had a broad knowledge of European history- however, in Voltaire's time it may have been true- in Charlemagne's or during the Ottonian dynasty it wasn't.
The issue at hand in any case is not past errors of Civ II when attempting to include female leaders for civilizations but whether or not a North West African civilization is worthy of being included- and considering that Mali can also be held to represent other similar civilizations in the same area, such as the empire of Ghana, or Songhay, I don't see why not.
It has everything generally required for civilization status- cities, literature, trading links, both African and international, advanced religion, art, metalworking, architecture, aninmal husbandry, pottery, medicine, et cetera.
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Last edited by molly bloom on 11-07-2005 at 14:36
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
Where do you get off calling me Euro-centric for saying that Mali should not be in? I haven't said anything Euro-centric. |
Oh, I don't know...
...this maybe ?
quote:
Africa is huge, but has no lasting acheivements... other than Egypt, which should count as Africa's token civ. |
One usually finds it's far easier to make that kind of quote when one knows little or nothing about Africa or African civilizations.
A non-lasting achievement deemed worthy of inclusion in the Metropolitan Museum of Art- its counterpart is in the British Museum. This is the kind of work that prompted the Europeans who first saw it to attempt to attribute it to Carthaginians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, lost Romans, lost tribes of Israel- since it was 'obvious' to them that Africans coudn't possibly make anything so life-like.
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Last edited by molly bloom on 11-07-2005 at 18:39
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ArchdukeNewell
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California
Jul 2005
time: 21:18
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to Molly Bloom,
Obviously, you have no idea what the word euro-centric means. Here is a brief etymology lesson. Euro-centric: focusing or spending an inordinate amount of praise on Europe and/or European achievements.
Now, correctly noting that Africa has had a much much smaller impact on the world than basically everyone else, does not fit that definition of euro-centric. Alexander01 has never given more attention or praise to Europe than the rest of the civilized world. Unless you ignore his comments on Persia, Babylon, China, Egypt (which, despite your pathetic argument is still in Africa, colonies outside it do not move its base), Mongolia, India, Mesoamerica, Asia Minor, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He rightly notes that Europe has had achievements worth recognizing in the last five hundred years. If this is what you consider euro-centricism, then you need to educate yourself on the English language (which being the de facto lingua franca is another Western achievement which I believe has already been noted).
Ivory masks are wonderful, but if every stone age group that learned to carve animal bones was in Civ, we'd have hundreds if not thousands of civs to play. The bar has to be set a bit higher than that I'm afraid. I'd be interested to hear about all the lasting achievements the Malinese had, so you claim, in religion, philosophy, science, literature, etc. And even art if you can come up with something better than one example of stone age bone carving.
/rant off
Now, what I am really upset about is that the Ottoman Empire is being left out. Can anyone make a rational argument that they are less worthy of inclusion than the Malinese? Their lasting achievements include, the development of gunpowder weaponry (and before anyone snarkily mentions that the Chinese invented gunpowder, I already know that, but they never did anything useful with it, the Ottoman Empire weaponized gunpowder and thus revolutionized warfare around the world). I would put their artistic acheivements in calligraphy, jewelry, and painting as millenia ahead of the Malinese (and the co-existed tyo boot) /points at picture at bottom of article
Ottoman architecture was very advanced for its day and has the added bonus of not melting in a rainstorm.
Also, in geographical size, population, length of existence, and influence in the world, the Ottoman's clearly outstrip the Malinese. So how can one logically reject such an obvious candidate for inclusion? It probably has to do with anti-Islamic feelings (man... we already included the Arabs, how many more of these Muslims do we have to put in?), but I digress.
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Alexander01
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
One usually finds it's far easier to make that kind of quote when one knows little or nothing about Africa or African civilizations.
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Attacks against my supposed lack of knowledge neither aid your arguments nor amplify African civilizations.
To the contrary, I've studied sub-saharan African civilizations to a great extent, including Mali, Songhai, Ghana, in addition to Benin, Kush, Axum, Meroe, Great Zimbabwe and the Bantu. I find them all quite fascinating. Nobody is saying that they aren't civilizations, as they most certainly are, only that they do not merit inclusion in Civ4. (At least, not until the expansions.)
My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world (Example: Greece, yes. Indonesia, no. Japan, yes. Sioux, no. Britain, yes. Mali, maybe in an expansion.)
I am not attempting to belittle Mali in any way, I just don't think they stand up to the towering, monolithic likes of China, India, or Persia, all of which have had a massive undisputed (and undisputable) impact on the entire world.
As for Egypt, the Ptolemids don't count -- they're Greek. Firstly, we're referring to Egypt itself, the "Black Lands of the Nile," the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms, to get that straight. Second, the territorial expansionism of Thutmose III and Ramses II in the Levant does not change the fact that Egypt is in Africa, which is my point. Your arguments to the contrary only serve to make you look silly. By that logic, France, Germany, Spain, Russia and Britain are not European because they expanded out of Europe.
I'm saying: Egypt is in Africa. Continue to try to prove that it isn't, and I'll show you what drugs you're smoking.
Furthermore, Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01
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Alexander01
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
As far as Eleanor Roosevelt being a woman leader of the United States is concerned, yes, she wasn't president- however, she did combat racism and work for civil rights for black Americans, and she was greatly involved in domestic and international politics.
If you can find something comparable for the entirely mythological Prester John, I'm sure we'd all be agog at finding it out.
As for the quote from Voltaire- I'm familiar with it, as anyone would be who had a broad knowledge of European history- however, in Voltaire's time it may have been true- in Charlemagne's or during the Ottonian dynasty it wasn't.
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Holy Roman Empire
No. Even in the days of Charlemagne and Otto, the HRE was not ever Holy or Roman. Sorry. That it was an empire under Charlemagne is true, but that was a completely different empire than its Ottonian successor. The Carolingian Empire (founded, AD 800) died with the last of the West Frankish dynasty. The Ottonian Empire (founded AD 962) was an attempt to revive Charles' greatness. They did, to some extent, but the damage was already done; the HRE now found itself subject to Popes, Electors, rebellions, and disunity. Let's call it the Secular German Confederation of Feudal Duchies and Principalities.
Prester John
The notion of Prester John is based on the Christian Ethiopian Kingdom of Ezana, the historical germ for the convoluted notion that passed into European legend. Yes, the Europeans were wrong on both the size and longevity of the kingdom, but what weren't the Europeans wrong about in the early middle ages anyway?
Eleanor Roosevelt
It was a joke. Do you understand sarcasm? I was listing a bunch of mythological figures and put an historical individual on the end as a joke, to see if anyone caught it. Don't think too hard about it.
But anyway, that's not the main point of this thread, which is:
Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01
Last edited by Alexander01 on 11-07-2005 at 19:54
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Alexander01
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world |
And the Incas fit that how? Hell, Mali even had more gold than the Incas.
Mali fits more than the Incas.
Furthermore, they're in and they ain't going to taken out, so nyeh  . |
For the last time, I don't care how much or how little gold a civ has! China didn't value gold so much! They focused on silver and jade, but we don't dispute their claims to civilization over gold.
As for the Incas, they were more advanced than people often give them credit for. Don't compare the Malinese at their zenith with the Incas at their point of collapse. The Spanish pushed the Incas off the cultural cliff when the Incas were already in a decline.
Here's some of the Incas' accomplishments: brain surgery using hardened copper and obsidian tools, 30,000 km of efficient roads, the civil service, a form of due process, constructing Machu Picchu in the mountains, in addition to being the dominant military power in their region.
Don't be so hasty to thrust the Incas aside.
By the way, I'm not trying to get the Malinese removed from the game. That would be a lost cause. I know that Firaxis wouldn't care anyway. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the issue of their inclusion.
And moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. 
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
I'd be interested to hear about all the lasting achievements the Malinese had, so you claim, in religion, philosophy, science, literature, etc. And even art if you can come up with something better than one example of stone age bone carving. |
Timbuktu and Jenne were subsaharian Africa's most important centers of learning at the time. The priests of Timbuktu have been instrumental in the spread of Islam in western Africa (something that has still strong effects to this day). Gao was an important center of trade.
The Malians built a great many mosques and libraries, with their specific "Sudanese" architecture ("Sudanese" comes from an Arabic word, and not from the country currently called Sudan). An example of the Sudanese architecture can be found here
The Malians (more accurately, the three Civs that followed each other in Western Africa: Ghana, Mali, Songhay) also brought central government where there were only small chiefdoms. This included conquest and assimilation in a fashion similar to other convulted iron-age areas. However, since nobody cares about African history, establishing an unchallenged empire doesn't look like an achievement as impressive as in other parts of the world.
It's par for the course of quite a few civs that are usually included in Civilization.
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10-07-2005 21:18
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