14-07-2005 02:53									#61
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It takes a bloody long time to 'do an argentina' and leave the rich world to become a third world nation - in Argentina's case around half a century:

Argentina and (Canada's) GDP per head as % of Western Europe:

1904: 107% (110%)
1914: 101% (123%)
1924: 113% (111%)
1934: 97% (93%)
1944: 103% (167%)
1954: 90% (139%)
1964: 71% (120%)
1974: 71% (121%)
1984: 53% (120%)
1994: 50% (114%)
2004: 41% (117%)


That leaves plenty of time for corrective measures.

Countries that are dependent on major resources can enter and leave the 'rich' countries much more rapidly - however Alberta would itself be one of these economically volatile nations.

	14-07-2005 03:58									#62
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That's an interesting post, elfreako. Two things to me stand out.

This period:

1974: 71% (121%)
1984: 53% (120%)

And this period:

1934: 97% (93%)
1944: 103% (167%)
1954: 90% (139%)


Canada's participation not only increased Canada's GDP during the war, but the effect lasted well after the war. In Argentina, they had hardly any change over the same period.

Argentina really doesn't start to fall behind Canada, until the 1970's, since they both experienced similar declines in the 1960's.

So my question would be what would cause the peculiar decline in Argentina between 1974 and 1984?

	14-07-2005 04:07									#63
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A bloody rightwing military dictatorship?

	14-07-2005 04:08									#64
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I'm not well versed in Argentinian history.

However, if that's the case, then that's hardly a gradual decline of economic prosperity in Argentina, now is it?

	14-07-2005 04:12									#65
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Surely the figures for Europe in '44 and '54 are "artificially" depressed by the war and concomitant disruption?

Could you give the same with the US as the comparator?

	14-07-2005 04:15									#66
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That's why I was saying, that you see the percentage figures for Canada and Argentina drop from 44-64, dropping Canada right about where they were before the war.

	14-07-2005 05:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Surely the figures for Europe in '44 and '54 are "artificially" depressed by the war and concomitant disruption? Could you give the same with the US as the comparator?

Certainly - but bear in mind that effects the 1934 (depth of depression) and 1944 figures (top of WW2 boom).

GDP per head of Argentina and (Canada) as % of USA:

1904: 56% (57%)
1914: 53% (65%)
1924: 51% (50%)
1934: 59% (57%)
1944: 30% (49%)
1954: 40% (62%)
1964: 40% (68%)
1974: 45% (77%)
1984: 34% (77%)
1994: 33% (75%)
2004: 28% (79%)

Perhaps I should also post the growth rate of Argentinian GDP per head as wel:

Growth in GDP per head, annual averages:

1904-14: 0.3%
1914-24: 2.1%
1924-34: -0.5%
1934-44: 1.8%
1944-54: 0.8%
1954-64: 1.8%
1964-74: 3.5%
1974-84: -1.1%
1984-94: 1.2%
1994-04: 0.0%

So you can see the main problem Argentina has is that it's average income is no higher than it was 30 years ago.

	14-07-2005 05:37									#68
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Oh my.

	14-07-2005 05:48									#69
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Craig is a wing-nut poly-sci prof who used to amuse students no end. The department treasured him as a token conservative.

Link Byfield (Ted's son) is an extreme right wing journalist. Sun Publishing makes a point of keeping one or two of them around to set off bombs under everyone.

Their feelings re Canada and Alberta's place in it, or better yet out of it, are the product of the NEP.

	14-07-2005 05:52									#70
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Starchild Canadians are odd. After five years, I still don't fully understand how they can build such a nice country and then spend all their waking time trying to tear it apart.

Regional bickering is part of the national character.

quote: Originally posted by Az But why the heck is it the province's money, and not federal money? just because you live in the same province as a bunch of oil wells doesn't mean you should somehow feel that you are paying for everybody else.

For the same reason that hydro belongs to the people of Quebec and BC, and the minerals belong to the people of Ontario. Provincial ownership of natural resources is part of the constitutional order.

	14-07-2005 05:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh my.

Isn't it great?!!

	14-07-2005 06:01									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Isn't it great?!!

Yes.

	14-07-2005 06:02									#73
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It's lively.

	14-07-2005 09:41									#74
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CalgaryGrit's Rebuttal

Some choice quotes:

quote: …until the price of oil drops. Or Canada decides not to let them into NAFTA. Or head-offices of Canadian companies leave Calgary. Or there's a mass exodus of human capital. And there is no way a rich nation with 3 million people would have even remotely as much clout in the world as a slightly less rich nation of 30+ million people. ... Translation: This is the only way to prevent man on man monogamy. ... Is this guy serious? Canada has the best economy in the G8.

	14-07-2005 09:44									#75
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Why do you think the head-offices of so many "Canadian" companies are in Calgary?

With that in mind, why would you think they'd leave Alberta if Alberta were to leave Canada?

If you correctly answered the first question, the 2nd question is simply "they wouldn't".

And I don't think the point of separating would be to get "clout" in the world, it would to get "clout" in the terms of having more say over what happens in your area.

	14-07-2005 09:48									#76
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*Throws down the gloves*

CalgaryGrit assumes that Canada has any clout as it is. It doesn't. A smaller country holding the Yanks cockring, and willing to give it a tug, would have far more.

As for Canada having any say in what Alberta does if push came to shove... can you say 'endanger oil and gas supply of the USA'? I knew you could.

He is right though that Calgary would become a corporate ghost town and shrivel back down to the size it deserves from the viagra enlarged dink it has become. Is that a bad idea?

Alright, I have to grant that he is correct that the author of the OP article and the loon academic who inspired it are... nuts. Canada does have zero defecit, and the lowest unemployment numbers of the past thirty years (or so they tell me) strong growth, etc, etc...

Come and get me, Spiffor!

	14-07-2005 09:55									#77
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quote: He is right though that Calgary would become a corporate ghost town and shrivel back down to the size it deserves from the viagra enlarged dink it has become. Is that a bad idea?

That's the part he was most wrong about. Calgary has Canada's 2nd highest amount of corporate HQs mostly because of the energy industry. That energy industry won't disappear if Alberta leaves Canada...

That's just more wishful thinking from a jealous Edmontonian.

	14-07-2005 09:58									#78
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The Bank of Montreal sure as hell would, and they'd do it on fear or rumour.. Just ask... Montreal.

	14-07-2005 10:03									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's the part he was most wrong about. Calgary has Canada's 2nd highest amount of corporate HQs mostly because of the energy industry. That energy industry won't disappear if Alberta leaves Canada... That's just more wishful thinking from a jealous Edmontonian.

Asher, dear, a lot of companies come carpet bagging to Alberta for, guess what? Low taxes. They have a HO in Calgary with 15 people. They have an operations centre in Vancouver, Winnipeg or Toronto with 500.

What do you think happens to those companies when Calgary is foreign territory, and they are regarded as foreign companies when they operate in Canada?

You think anyone other than the oil and gas guys, and the Alberta Treas. Branch sticks around?

	14-07-2005 10:07									#80
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Quit being so obtuse, nye...the vast majority of corporations in Alberta wouldn't flee if Alberta left. Why would they?

It would be easier to open a satellite office somewhere else in Canada and make it a subsidiary.

Why is it that people make the case that if there was no oil, Calgary would be a ghost town..now people are saying if there was only oil, Calgary would be a ghost town...

Maybe the truth is somewhere inbetween? We'd be fine either way.

Edmonton, however...well, Edmonton has absolutely nothing aside from oil and Bioware.

	14-07-2005 10:17									#81
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And better people than Calgary will ever have until generations after your passing.

Anyways, I think you are incorrect that banks and airlines would stick around in the event of bad political **** hitting the fan.

Don't ask me. Ask Montreal. By your reasoning they had no reason to leave there in the first place, but they did. In droves.

	14-07-2005 10:18									#82
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Banks and Airlines aren't exactly a mainstay of the Calgary economy...

	14-07-2005 10:19									#83
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They, and others, are a large part of the head offices that you keep crowing about.

	14-07-2005 10:21									#84
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Which major banks have a head office in Calgary, and how many people do they employ..?

The only real airline based in Calgary is WestJet, and IIRC, they only employ ~1,500 in Calgary.

	14-07-2005 10:56									#85
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Hmmm. I thought it was BMO. I am finding it difficult to find anyone claiming to be from Calgary. There is a CoCalgary site claiming Bank of Nova Scotia.

I know one of the chartereds moved there. Maybe they have moved out again due to the bad climate.

	14-07-2005 10:58									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Which major banks have a head office in Calgary, and how many people do they employ..? The only real airline based in Calgary is WestJet, and IIRC, they only employ ~1,500 in Calgary.

And 1500 jobs can be easily pissed away?

What about CPRail? Shaw Communications? Dow Chemicals?

	14-07-2005 11:04									#87
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Cool.. two albertans duking it out. I got to get me some popcorn this should be fun.

NYE... Whats the state of the cattle industry in Alberta? Do you see first hand the effects of the US embargo? How are the farmers getting by without any income from their cattle sales?

I heard the Bush adminstration is pushing to have the US markets opened up to Canadian Cattle.

	14-07-2005 11:37									#88
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Don't suck up to me, Ontario boy! You're supposed to be laughing, remember?

The cattle ranchers are on life support. There isn't enough slaughter capacity up here (yet) to ship enough boxed beef (allowed) and the border remains closed to live animals going south (where the slaughter capacity got moved some years ago).

The Yanks have ****ed themselves in the left ear on this one. Slaughter houses are being rebuilt up here so that the industry never has to deal with the idiots in Washington (or a Montana court house) again. 1000's of American jobs have been zapped. Many jobs in Canada are being created. So, there is a silver lining.

	14-07-2005 12:17									#89
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This thread is absolutely fantastic. Asher not only managed to piss off the Canadians from outside Alberta, he also managed to piss off the one other resident Albertan!

	14-07-2005 12:26									#90
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Pissed off? This is dinner table chatter.

Now you, my sweet little froggy. Come here!

I want you!