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Pyrodrew is offline Pyrodrew
Prince

Dec 2000
time: 21:18
Arrow  Old Post 13-07-2005 04:33
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Secession Thread II - Canadian version: Canada, "the Argentina of the 21st century" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Colum...09/1123621.html
quote:
Time for Alberta to exit, stage right?
By LINK BYFIELD -- Calgary Sun

A University of Alberta professor I know sent me a lengthy article he's trying to get published, entitled: "Let's get while the getting's good."

In it, Leon Craig, professor emeritus of political science, lays out a case for Alberta to declare unilateral independence. And he lays it out well.

Craig makes no bones about it.

Alberta, he says, should go it alone.

Almost overnight, we would become one of the most prosperous nations in the world.

But -- and this is his key point -- the main reason to secede is not because Albertans would have more money. Not that there's anything wrong with money.

More importantly, we would create a country that reflects our own political and social beliefs, values and traditions, and our understanding of the common good.

Canada, says Craig, has been so badly governed since the Trudeau era, it has doomed itself to a Third World, banana republic fate.

We will become -- are in fact becoming -- the Argentina of the 21st century.


Political corruption gets rewarded instead of punished, productivity slides, and the opportunistic politics of envy becomes the basis of our whole system of national government.

The only promising place left in Canada, he concludes, is Alberta.

And Alberta owes it to itself, to its future citizens, and to like-minded people in the rest of the country to save itself.

As a sovereign and independent nation, he suggests, our population -- viable to begin with -- would double in 10 years, even allowing for a welcome exodus of Albertans who would be happier back in Canada.

Far more good people move to take advantage of opportunity than flee from it.

Our social policies -- marriage and family matters, medicare, civil and religious freedoms, etc. -- would no longer be imposed by the Supreme Court and a handful of Ottawa mandarins.

We could establish our own laws to deal with crime and punishment, and our own separate relationship with the Americans.

If we don't do these things now, he says, we'll sink with the Canadian ship.

The professor dismisses the idea of "refederating" Canada along its original lines of strong provinces and a small central government.

He thinks the rest of the country is too far gone to change back to what it was.

He even gives short shrift to the "West."

Any attempt to create a new federalism, even in the West, he believes will fail. If other western provinces, or parts of provinces, want to join Alberta, by becoming part of it, they should be welcomed.

All that binds Albertans to Canada, he concludes, is sentiment -- an attachment to Canada's once-illustrious military and pioneer past, and to our own provincial part in it.

We must now face the fact that the old Canada is gone forever and the new Canada is disgusting.

So what are we to make of all this?

It's hard to argue against his analysis of the problem.

The Trudeau delusion that you can build a credible nation with "national social programs" is so shallow it's absurd.

And given the stern rejection of the Reform party by eastern Canadians, it's impossible to refute that the only forceful thing Albertans can do is to separate.

Where I disagree with my friend is whether we owe any allegiance to other Canadians.

What is driving more and more Albertans towards separatism is the fact that our original constitutional arrangement -- the political bargain on which Canada was built -- has long since been obliterated by the national government.

Had that not happened, Canada would not be in its present ugly mess.

Alberta is the only province with both the means and the motive to force a restoration of those original terms. Not by asking. By telling.

But we owe it to our nine federal partners -- the other provinces -- to state the terms on which we would be willing to stay. This is something we have never done.

Only if those terms are refused should we decide on independence.


How would Canadian provinces divide up if Canada did split up?

Alberta & New Canada
or
Quebec & "we're not Quebec" Canada
or ?

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 04:53
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If the Albertans somehow actually were going through with it, I Imagine it would be stopped at the last minute by the rest of Canada negotiating special treatement for Alberta that would allow it to enjoy everything it hoped to gain from independance while remaining an integral part of Canada.

There is no way in hell an actual secession would occur, imho.

Of course I'm no expert of even the most trivial sort on Canadian politics so I'll graciously bow to the insight of any of our Canadians who might show me wrong about this.

DerSchwarzfalke is offline DerSchwarzfalke
Chieftain
USA
Jul 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 04:53 Visit DerSchwarzfalke's homepage!
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If Alberta ever had the balls to exit, I just want to let my Federal Canadian friends that I am willing to volunteer my services as a modern day American filibusterer.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 04:54
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quote:

Canada, says Craig, has been so badly governed since the Trudeau era, it has doomed itself to a Third World, banana republic fate.

We will become -- are in fact becoming -- the Argentina of the 21st century.


Pyrodrew is offline Pyrodrew
Prince

Dec 2000
time: 21:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
If the Albertans somehow actually were going through with it, I Imagine it would be stopped at the last minute by the rest of Canada negotiating special treatement for Alberta that would allow it to enjoy everything it hoped to gain from independance while remaining an integral part of Canada.

There is no way in hell an actual secession would occur, imho.


I agree, but like the last secession thread we'll assume this is outside of hell and a division actually does occur.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 08:43
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This guy is a whackjob. Canada, third world nation

RedFred is offline RedFred
King
Vancouver
Jun 1999
time: 21:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 08:48
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Is Link Byfield any relation to Ted Byfield, the Alberta Report guy?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 08:52 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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waht a marioon

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 09:06 Visit Asher's homepage!
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He makes a good case.

Canada needs Alberta more than Alberta needs Canada, it's time to pull a Quebec and start holding polls and threatening to ditch.

Max Webster is offline Max Webster
Prince

Jul 2000
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 10:39
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Alberta reminds me of a whiny spoiled little brat child with all the toys and doesn't want to share.
My oil, mine,me, all mine, me, all about me, don't share, all me waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Yes it would be great. Alberta separates. Then the world dumps fossils fuels and finds an alternative.
Oh god I would laugh and laugh.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Max Webster
Alberta reminds me of a whiny spoiled little brat child with all the toys and doesn't want to share.
My oil, mine,me, all mine, me, all about me, don't share, all me waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Yes it would be great. Alberta separates. Then the world dumps fossils fuels and finds an alternative.
Oh god I would laugh and laugh.

This is just sad.

joncha is offline joncha
Emperor
North of FOPOG
Jan 2003
time: 21:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 10:46
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Clearly we should just nationalise Alberta's oil reserves.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 10:58
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Tired of ads?

Thanks for bringing this article to my attention.

There's quite a few things I can do with this.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:33
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Funny how one of the world's most developed nation, how the world's most appraised emigration country, can become a thrid world country in the pen of a whackjob.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:35
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quote:
how the world's most appraised emigration country


What does that have to do with anything?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
What does that have to do with anything?

I tend to think that a country appraised by potential migrants is rather dynamic, and is rather promising of a good life.

The US was this beacon of migration once (and still is to a large extent). It's now Canada's turn.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:39
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BTW, in case of secession, I bet no Canadian would miss the Albertans. Sure, your oil would be sorely missed, but the people there would be considered as good riddance IMO. Actually, I bet the Québecois of all people would be missed more than the Albertans in case of a secession

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:49
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quote:

I tend to think that a country appraised by potential migrants is rather dynamic, and is rather promising of a good life.


not "good", but "better than shithole we lived in before".
I mean, people flock to Russia, from former soviet republics. It doesn't say ****.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:51 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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To be fair, both your countries are sort of shitholes compared to Canada too...

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 15:59
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Not really. I could've moved into Canada if I wanted to. Same with Spiffor.

We just don't want to.

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 16:27
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Double Alberta's population to what? The same number of people who live in the city limits of Toronto? One of the most prosperous countries in the same way Luxembourg is? Just as influential too.

Canadians are odd. After five years, I still don't fully understand how they can build such a nice country and then spend all their waking time trying to tear it apart.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:42 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Starchild
Double Alberta's population to what? The same number of people who live in the city limits of Toronto? One of the most prosperous countries in the same way Luxembourg is? Just as influential too.

Same amount of people in the city limits of Toronto, with maybe 10x the GDP.

It's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:44 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, in case of secession, I bet no Canadian would miss the Albertans. Sure, your oil would be sorely missed, but the people there would be considered as good riddance IMO. Actually, I bet the Québecois of all people would be missed more than the Albertans in case of a secession


No one would miss the French, except for the French. People would be happy to see their provinces get more money with the French gone.

People would miss the extra money they got (in the form of equalization payments) when the rich province leaves and stops paying the other provinces their allowance.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:49
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But why the heck is it the province's money, and not federal money? just because you live in the same province as a bunch of oil wells doesn't mean you should somehow feel that you are paying for everybody else.

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
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  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:51 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
But why the heck is it the province's money, and not federal money? just because you live in the same province as a bunch of oil wells doesn't mean you should somehow feel that you are paying for everybody else.

Alberta owns the oil and resources in its province, and has since 1932 with an agreement with the federal government.

The Liberal government in the early 80s tried to nationalize it, and screwed it all up in the process...causing layoffs en masse and forcing huge American oil companies out.

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:54
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not the bot reply, please. Tell me why do the people of alberta deserve to enjoy the profits of oil more than everyone else in Canada, besides their duely paid wages as workers of the oil industry?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
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quote:
not the bot reply, please. Tell me why do the people of alberta deserve to enjoy the profits of oil more than everyone else in Canada, besides their duely paid wages as workers of the oil industry?

Because that's what the agreement said -- we own the resources, and therefore the profits from them.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 18:56
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The problem isn't Alberta, but Albertans. Kill 'em all and replace them with real people.

Ninot is offline Ninot
King
Centre Bell
Nov 2001
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 19:11
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I was never for the seperation of Quebec from Canada, but I always hoped that if the Parti Quebecois ever pulled it off, the American Government would find some reason to dislike Quebec to a point where they need to invade us and we become an American protectorate or even a state. Anything that would eventually allow us to use the American dollar. But this was a while ago, when the American dollar was at an all time high when compared to the Canadian dollar. This was also when I thought we'd have a President like Clinton, and not Bush.

But back to the main topic. Alberta's OK, but I could live without it.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:18
  Old Post 13-07-2005 19:37 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Go for it Alberta

Ben, move to Alberta and lead the revolution.

 
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