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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ah, the Dumbledore is omnipotent again. He is making speculation about things based on what is known to him personally. He says that a horcrux within a living thing is risky and indicates that he doesn't really know much about it. He wouldn't be able to confirm Harry as a horcrux without probably doing some tests on him, and even if he did suspect, would you think Harry would be ready for that speculation? He may have done a lot, but that may be too much for him to take until he's ready to face the big guy himself. And if Dumbledore is wrong on that speculation, Harry is not going to be very happy with the headmaster. And Rowling's propensity for the big surprise would indicated something massive that Dumbledore may have missed or not said within the pages of the books.
Once in the book he says Voldemort intended to make a horcrux after killing the Potters, but Dumbledore thought that maybe he implanted the horcrux in Nagini after the spell backfired. Though Dumbledore made it clear that he wasn't sure.
It could be foreshadowing based on Dumbledore's error (or purposely being vague). |
You were the one arguing about why Dumbledore would not leave Harry without info about fighting Voldemort. As for your penchant of "big surprises", please, Rowling's "surprises" are no more surprising than the plot points of any other involved story as the reader just finds out more.
Here is a more simple question for you to tackle n pg. 503 Dumbledore states that the incarnate piece of Voldermort's soul must be the LAST PART of Voldemort that those whishing to kill Voldemort must attack. Did Dumbledore give Harry bad info? Another mistake by Dumdledore? (again, you seems to question only was is convinient to question- maybe Volkdermot never got to make more than 3 Hoxcruxes- care to explain why Dumbledore must be right about everything other than those bits that happen to make this particular line of thought conviniently possible?) And if not, then it simply can not be Harry who kills Voldermort, because if Harry did it, then a piece of Voldermort's soul would have been around after the incarnate piece died, and that must have some significance, no?
And finally, how on earth would Harry ever find out he was one, HUH? He "figures it out"? Fine, then how does he test it? And if Dumbledore is correct on his statement about the order of attack (a statement I can hardly see Dumbledore's man through and through questioning) then does Harry simply off himself immidiately? The only person who would know, Voldemort, would have every reason in the world to keep Harry ignorant on the subject, making hismelf immortal. As for then him still trying to kill Harry, Voldermort already knows that a couple of his pieces are dead- will he make himself possibly mortal by killing yet another?
So Imran, who besides Harry (who under this line of thought must probably be dead already) kills Voldemort?
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Well it could be a 'trophy'. Harry was the prophesied boy to bring down Voldemort. His dead body could be quite a treasure. We already know he's crude. Not like Harry has any possessions... unless you think Lily's wedding ring was the intended object for a horcrux. |
I don;t think any of this stupidity, because it is mindless speculation based on 0 evidence from the book. Its like when people began to speculate that Neville was the chosen one, once the bit of information about Neville came out. Still think that a plausible line of thought? cause, Hey, wouldn;t that be HUGE SURPRISE? Turns out it was Neville all along that was supposed to kill Voldemort? It even matches with this stupid specualtion- Harry offs himself, then Neville gives Voldi the smackdown.
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aneeshm
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Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
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And the book was in the possession of Lucius. Any curse was probably dismantled either before or by Lucius' ownership. |
And maybe it never did.
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So then why would it possess Harry then? |
Why put it in a kid he intends to KILL then?!?
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Maybe as insurance ?
Voldemort believed that Harry was "The Chosen One" , and thus tried to kill him .
If Harry is a Horcrux , then the following are the outcomes of a fight between Harry and Voldemort :
a) Voldemort kills Harry . +1 Voldemort , -1 Harry
b) Harry kills Vodemort , but Voldemort does not die , due to Harry being a Horcrux . +0 Voldemort , +0 Harry
c) Harry kills Voldemort , then kills himself , realising that he is a Horcrux . -1 Voldemort , -1 Harry
In all three cases , Harry never wins over Voldemort in terms of survival . If Voldemort has to go down , so has Harry . But if Harry goes down , Voldemort wins .
I've got a related idea , though . What does Avada Kedavra do to a Horcrux it is used on ? Also , if there are two sould in a single body , does Avada Kedavra distinguish between them ? Does it :
a) Get rid of both ? , or
b) Get rid of the one that came later or
c) Get rid of the one that came earlier ( and is thus bonded closer to the body ) or
d) Gets rid of one randomly or
e) Does nothing , confused ?
After all , the only thing the curse does is unlink the body and the soul . Does this mean that , in case Harry is shot at by Avada Kedavra ( and assuming he is a Horcrux ) , he might be saved , as it is only Voldemort's sould that is getting unlinked from Harry's body ?
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
Rowling's "surprises" are no more surprising than the plot points of any other involved story as the reader just finds out more. |
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/boo...s.ap/index.html
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Originally posted by CNN.com
Readers shocked by new Potter book
Surprises cause emotion in many |
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Did Dumbledore give Harry bad info? Another mistake by Dumdledore? |
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/e...interview1.html
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Originally posted by J.K. Rowling
But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. |
I'd think if Dumbledore knew or had the slightest inkling Harry was a horcrux, it may involve his emotions.
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care to explain why Dumbledore must be right about everything other than those bits that happen to make this particular line of thought conviniently possible |
He may not have been. But we are going from what we know. It's almost certain that Dumbledore is correct about Voldemort making horcruxes of himself, after Slughorn's memory and finding the locket. As for their being 7. We have no idea if that is true, but sounds plausible.
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And finally, how on earth would Harry ever find out he was one, HUH? |
Use your imagination. How would Harry find out what the other horcruxes even are or where they are located? How does he figure out how to destroy them?
I'm guessing R.A.B. may have something to do with it.
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As for then him still trying to kill Harry, Voldermort already knows that a couple of his pieces are dead- will he make himself possibly mortal by killing yet another? |
And why wouldn't he be able to split off another part of his soul after killing Harry if he knows a couple of his pieces are already dead (though it seems that he doesn't know)?
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Its like when people began to speculate that Neville was the chosen one, once the bit of information about Neville came out. Still think that a plausible line of thought? |
It was at the end of Book 5. And I don't think we've seen the last of Neville. It would be a great ending if Neville was the one who turned the tide and killed Bellatrix and then helped dispose of Voldemort.
I think Rowling is trying to clearly tell us Harry is the chosen one... but if not, it would definetly be intriguing.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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 Wow, so "people are shocked!? That is the arguement?
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Did Dumbledore give Harry bad info? Another mistake by Dumdledore? |
Yes, it makes so much emotional sense- lets let the kid I have helped and taught and trusted and helped, lets let him find out by himself he has to die...yup..
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He may not have been. But we are going from what we know. It's almost certain that Dumbledore is correct about Voldemort making horcruxes of himself, after Slughorn's memory and finding the locket. As for their being 7. We have no idea if that is true, but sounds plausible.
Use your imagination. How would Harry find out what the other horcruxes even are or where they are located? How does he figure out how to destroy them?
I'm guessing R.A.B. may have something to do with it. |
RAB, if it was Remus Black, is already dead. Thought Slughorn might have more inbfo, given that he knew what Hoxcruxes were and what it takes to make one.
And none of that still has anything to do with the "Harry is a HOxcrux" Crud.
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And why wouldn't he be able to split off another part of his soul after killing Harry if he knows a couple of his pieces are already dead (though it seems that he doesn't know)?
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Why does it seem he does not know? We have no way of knowing whether he knows abou the ring- he certaily knows about the Diary, and we don;t know if the locket was destroyed.
As fpr him making more Hoxcruxes, maybe he never made the 6th and is still waiting to make it after killing Potter.
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It was at the end of Book 5. And I don't think we've seen the last of Neville. It would be a great ending if Neville was the one who turned the tide and killed Bellatrix and then helped dispose of Voldemort.
I think Rowling is trying to clearly tell us Harry is the chosen one... but if not, it would definetly be intriguing. |
Lets me note you never once commented on the issue of all the HOxcruxes having to be eliminated prior to trying to kill Voldermort incanate. It would be more than just "emotions" not to tell Harry he was one of the things that must die before Voldermort can possibly be killed.
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mrmitchell
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I thought this was going to be the last book.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
When people are surprised by something, that is usually an indication that it is a surprise  . |
MOst American's would be surprised, given their ignorance, that Allah= Christian God. Does that make it "a surprise"?
quote:
Or Dumbledore couldn't bear to entertain the thought that Harry was a horcrux. Or Dumbledore just couldn't bear telling Harry (like he couldn't bear telling Harry about the prophecy until he reached his 5th year) until later. Unless you are saying Dumbledore planned to die so soon.
Hell, 'let him find out by himself' is exactly what Dumbledore did with the prophecy. |
There is a difference between finding out "you are the one to get Voldemort" vs." You have to die to get Voldermort" Besides, Dumbledore was there to help Harry cope with that discovery. He I think had a good idea he was going to die by the time He and Harry have the Hoxcrux discussion- after all, he was still sickly and not getting better.
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So now you are disputing Dumbledore's words after poo-pooing me for doing the same? |
I am poiting out the problems of all of sudden deciding to ignore what information we have in order to speulate.
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I think it was quite obvious what I thought about Dumbledore's pronouncement. It may not be correct. After all, it is still good for Harry to go after the rest of the horcruxes first without racking his brain on how to deal with himself as one.
And there is no evidence that Dumbledore thought he actually was going to die that soon. He probably thought that they would go hunting more horcruxes and (if he knew) could reveal the truth to Harry later on, when he thought Harry could take it better. Maybe Dumbledore was looking for a way to negate a horcrux without destroying the body it is kept in before revealing the truth to Harry, so he could save him without worrying him too much. |
Maybe, maybe, maybe.
And maybe there are 6 Hoxcruxes, Harry is not one of them, and the main point of the next book is Harry finding them, figuring out how to get rid of them, and finally killing Voldemort.
Again, if you satrt deciding which information was good and which is faulty, well, you basically know nothing. Rowlings statements about Dumbledore are about his emotial intelliegence and him being too trusting. I see nothing there about his intellectual pronouncements being wrong (if anything, the poor man is too smart). So, why then assume his intellectual announcements (someone looking to kill Voldermort should get rid of all the Hoxcruxes before hand) should be wrong?
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
MOst American's would be surprised, given their ignorance, that Allah= Christian God. Does that make it "a surprise"? |
A error of factual judgment = something unexpected in a novel?
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There is a difference between finding out "you are the one to get Voldemort" vs." You have to die to get Voldermort" Besides, Dumbledore was there to help Harry cope with that discovery. He I think had a good idea he was going to die by the time He and Harry have the Hoxcrux discussion- after all, he was still sickly and not getting better. |
And perhaps Dumbledore thought they could find a way to remove the horcrux beforehand. And if Dumbledore was hesitant to reveal to Harry he was going to have to face Voldemort, I think he'd be a HELL of a lot more hesitant to reveal that he may have to sacrifice his life.
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I am poiting out the problems of all of sudden deciding to ignore what information we have in order to speulate. |
Ignoring speculation you mean, which may or may not be correct.
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And maybe there are 6 Hoxcruxes, Harry is not one of them, and the main point of the next book is Harry finding them, figuring out how to get rid of them, and finally killing Voldemort. |
Could be. I guess the big suprise could be a relation of Harry (James' background) instead. I figure there must be more to James than just a jerk. Perhaps he is directly related to Godric Gryffindor.
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I see nothing there about his intellectual pronouncements being wrong (if anything, the poor man is too smart). So, why then assume his intellectual announcements (someone looking to kill Voldermort should get rid of all the Hoxcruxes before hand) should be wrong? |
But they are colored by his emotions and his protective urges. It may have made him misspeak as to the order of the destroying so as not to worry Harry or perhaps his emotions made him just not consider it properly. Or perhaps they knock out Voldemort in some manner. And Snape, now 'good', is charged with the act he did for Dumbledore, but now twice - against Harry and against Voldemort.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
A error of factual judgment = something unexpected in a novel? |
Given that the novel is a part of a greater story, what exactly is NOT unexpected? I did not expect Malfoy to have been given the job of killing Dumbledore. Does not make it a surprise.
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Could be. I guess the big suprise could be a relation of Harry (James' background) instead. I figure there must be more to James than just a jerk. Perhaps he is directly related to Godric Gryffindor. |
There are dozens of plot points that need to be resolved- what happens to the school, Malfoy, Snape, who is RAB< what are all the hoxcruxes, how are they gotten rid off, the final confronation, so forth and so on.
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But they are colored by his emotions and his protective urges. It may have made him misspeak as to the order of the destroying so as not to worry Harry or perhaps his emotions made him just not consider it properly. Or perhaps they knock out Voldemort in some manner. And Snape, now 'good', is charged with the act he did for Dumbledore, but now twice - against Harry and against Voldemort. |
Occam's Razor-why assume Dumbledore is wrong on this point when him being correct is the likely explination, given all that has happened before?
As for Snape, I do think he will play a crucial part in the final battle, and I do think we see he was not fuly evil (clearly he is not nice, but not gone like Voldemort).
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
I did not expect Malfoy to have been given the job of killing Dumbledore. Does not make it a surprise. |
In the beginning or end of the book? And there definetly can be surprises in a 'greater story'. An unexpected plot twist which causes a lot of readers surprise or shock fits, I'd think.
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Occam's Razor-why assume Dumbledore is wrong on this point when him being correct is the likely explination, given all that has happened before? |
Because we aren't dealing in reality, but rather fiction, and fiction where the author has had a reputation for write suprising plot twists into her novels.
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As for Snape, I do think he will play a crucial part in the final battle, and I do think we see he was not fuly evil (clearly he is not nice, but not gone like Voldemort). |
Of course if it may end up that he was evil as well... remember that interview I linked with Rowling? She seemed to be a little surprised by speculation that Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders. Then again, she loves misinformation... though it'd really be a trip if Snape stayed evil and Draco turned... though Dumbledore kept insisting there was a solid reason to trust Snape, I guess we'll see what that is, and should indicate that he'll turn back to the *ahem* light side.
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Guynemer
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I thought it was already known that Harry was a direct descendant of Gryffindor? Wasn't this explained (or at least heavily implied) at the end of COS?
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21-07-2005 09:52
ACK!
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