25-07-2005 01:54									#151
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Now, think of Francesco Mancebo.

	25-07-2005 02:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Are you saying that cricket, like golf, is not a real sport and cricketers, like golfers, are not real athletes?

No I'm saying Shane is fat.

Who won the green jersey?

	25-07-2005 02:45									#153
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Thor Hushovd, the Norwegian guy.

	25-07-2005 02:54									#154
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hard for the sprinters on a skating rink.

	25-07-2005 02:55									#155
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vinokourov scrwed it for ogrady.

	25-07-2005 03:04									#156
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He needed sixteen points more than Hushovd. He wasn't going to bridge that gap.

	25-07-2005 03:15									#157
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35 for winning the final sprint and 12 for first place in the intermediate sprints. out of those 47, vinokourov took 41

	25-07-2005 03:23									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia vinokourov scrwed it for ogrady.

Following that reasoning, Armstrong ruined it for Basso..Basso for Ulrich and so on.
Ogrady ruined it for Ogrady.

Sad to see a green jersey not winning one decent sprint though, Mcewen would have deserved it alot more.

	25-07-2005 04:50									#159
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If only McEwen hadn't head butted O'Grady, he probably would have won a 3rd straight Green Jersey.

	25-07-2005 05:09									#160
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Jury c*ck-up... O'Grady clearly elbowed McEwen as well, so it should've been "both or none".

	25-07-2005 06:09									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia thats already TWO riders. In 2003, Dennis Menchov won the maillot blanc. In 2004. he didnt even finish the race.

What do you have against popyvych?? I don't care if the last 10 white jersey winners went on to be great or conversely went on to be nothings. I just see a good rider with potential.

	25-07-2005 07:00									#162
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quote: Following that reasoning, Armstrong ruined it for Basso..Basso for Ulrich and so on. Ogrady ruined it for Ogrady. Sad to see a green jersey not winning one decent sprint though, Mcewen would have deserved it alot more.

uuuh no. thats totally different. Vinokourov wasnt in the sprinters race at all. Armstrong was in the yellow jersey race, so he didnt screw up Basso or Ullrich, he just beat them. If Perrerio needed 20 points in the final mountain stage and armstrong went out and got them for himself enroute to taking the stage, then he screwed it up for Pereiro.

quote: What do you have against popyvych?? I don't care if the last 10 white jersey winners went on to be great or conversely went on to be nothings. I just see a good rider with potential.

so i guess that means my original statement

quote: dont expect popvych to do as well next year as trhis year. last years maillot blanc winner is now two hours behind lance armstrong. he finished in the top 10 last year i think.

would be correct. in fact, i'll bet you $10 that popvych does not win the maillot blanc next year.

	25-07-2005 07:01									#163
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He wouldn't have won it this year either if Valverde stayed healthy.

	25-07-2005 07:10									#164
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another excellent point.

	25-07-2005 07:23									#165
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It doesn't have to take anything away from Popovych though. In these days of hyper-speciality, the game plan has taken over as the determinant factor in TdF success.

There might be no Hincapie in the spring classics, no Basso in the Giro, and Mayo might have actually learned something of his mistakes this year. Popovych will follow a different trajectory as well if he's going to be the team captain for DSC.

The team chiefs will also be an "x-factor". Bruyneel has a superb track record. Riis has proven to be a very competent team chief, while Godefroot is actually leaving the sport.

	25-07-2005 08:31									#166
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a bit of agro in the sprint? O'grady is a tough rider

Vinokourov is very entertaining but a bit crazy I think

all those sprinters are fiery by nature

	25-07-2005 21:59									#167
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This year's tour was rather instructive. It didn't seem like much, but after all was said and done, Armstrong crushed his rivals.

	25-07-2005 23:59									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia would be correct. in fact, i'll bet you $10 that popvych does not win the maillot blanc next year.

I'll actually bet you 1 million that he won't win the maillot blanc next year ( unless there is a rule change)

The deadline this year was January 1 1980. Since Popovych has a birthday of January 4, 1980. I don't think he'll make the cut next year unless he somehow manages to make himself a year younger.

You didn't think I'd catch that did you?


AS for your other statements, citing one or two white jersey winners who have not done well in a subsequent tour is no evidence at all as to how Popovych may do. I don't see Popovych as having winning potential because of the white jersey . . . Instead its because he time-trialled decently (11th place and 17th) and was consistently strong in the mountains despite being primarily in a support role for Armstrong.

I don't know that he can contend, but perhaps if he is annointed leader of a strong team , we could see. I would not count him out.

*** NOte that generally I don't view the "white" as a predictor of future sucess since often one rider wins it because other young riders lose time performing "domestique" roles OR if they go on a long break that no one cares about and other young riders are forced to stay with their teams. Its the same with Popovych-- the white is pretty irrelevant to my view of him as a rider-- Its how he rode, not what he won that is the key.

	26-07-2005 00:03									#169
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This year's tour was rather instructive. It didn't seem like much, but after all was said and done, Armstrong crushed his rivals.

it WAS another dominanting performance where Armstrong never looked in jeopardy. 2nd and 1st in the ITTs and he rode in the mountains simply to not let any important rival get away. Basso looked his match in the mountains but needed to beat Armstrong there given that he lost time in the Itts

	26-07-2005 00:06									#170
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Popovych is good but next year is going to be to soon for him, another 2 or 3 and might very well be a contender.
Hyncapie will probaly get the top spot next year in the Discovery team for past services. I don't think he's good enough to win but he does deserve a chance and you'll never know.

	26-07-2005 00:11									#171
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quote: Originally posted by alva Popovych is good but next year is going to be to soon for him, another 2 or 3 and might very well be a contender. Hyncapie will probaly get the top spot next year in the Discovery team for past services. I don't think he's good enough to win but he does deserve a chance and you'll never know.

I'm not saying Popovych is good enough to win next year-- Ullrich and Basso will likely be back

Hincapie--hmmm-- good showing this year so perhaps he does deserve a shot, but it may be one of those things where if he falters, there is a plan "B"

	26-07-2005 00:11									#172
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They'll have to weigh their chances. Hincapie is a superb spring classic rider, with good chances of winning. He won Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne, finished second in the Hell, and seventh in the Ronde van Vlaanderen.

Make him captain for the Tour, and he'll need to forfeit the spring classics.

	26-07-2005 00:56									#173
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quote: I'll actually bet you 1 million that he won't win the maillot blanc next year ( unless there is a rule change) The deadline this year was January 1 1980. Since Popovych has a birthday of January 4, 1980. I don't think he'll make the cut next year unless he somehow manages to make himself a year younger. You didn't think I'd catch that did you?

nah, i didnt think you woulda caught that, honestly.

quote: AS for your other statements, citing one or two white jersey winners who have not done well in a subsequent tour is no evidence at all as to how Popovych may do. I don't see Popovych as having winning potential because of the white jersey . . . Instead its because he time-trialled decently (11th place and 17th) and was consistently strong in the mountains despite being primarily in a support role for Armstrong.

heres the problem tho. basso was 6th and 20th and hes considered a poor time trailer, in terms of being able to win the tour. popvych needs to improve on that if he wants to do well. (which he can possibly do, or possibly not do, we still dont know.)

	26-07-2005 01:17									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia heres the problem tho. basso was 6th and 20th and hes considered a poor time trailer, in terms of being able to win the tour. popvych needs to improve on that if he wants to do well. (which he can possibly do, or possibly not do, we still dont know.)

Thats the problem they all had in trying to beat Lance. Ullrich knew he had to take the time trials since he was unlikely to beat Armstrong in the mountains. Basso was the opposite. Now Basso that "poor timetrialist" was SECOND overall so in an Armstrongless race-- could have been the winner (its not at all certain as many stages would have been quite different)

In a race with no Lance fro the outset, your comparisons are different. Basso and Ullrich will be favorites . . .. Popovych could arguably time-trial comparably with Basso (although he did lose 1'15 to him in the final ITT, he did beat him by a few seconds in the first short TT)-- I don't see either of them beating Ullrich in the ITTs-- So it will come down to the mountains as usual-- Basso will have to be able to get away from Ullrich if he wants to win. A Popovych or Hincapie will need to be able to win in the mountains as well--

For me, my money would be on Basso. He matched Armstrong acceleration for acceleration through the mountains for two years. Until someone else shows they can do that my bet is on Basso. But I see a lot encouraging about Popovych and I would not be suprised at all if he was on the podium next year ( I would be equally unsuprised if it took a couple of years ie if Popovyvh ridea again in a support role next year)

	26-07-2005 01:18									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia nah, i didnt think you woulda caught that, honestly.

lawyer side coming out-- The age of a "young rider" seemed a natural thing to check

	26-07-2005 01:23									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia (which he can possibly do, or possibly not do, we still dont know.)

I think that quote is applicable to a lot of riders. Given specialization and role players, it is often hard to know who is good and who can be "great". For certain there are some fabulous riders well down the GC who toiled hard and could have placed much better if they hadn't been collecting food and water and battling the winds for their leader for long stretches-- heck even going backward to collect a fallen comrade.

Those folks, you only see how truly good they are at other races. At the Tour they can at best show glimpses

	26-07-2005 09:23									#177
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quote: originally posted by Flub For me, my money would be on Basso. He matched Armstrong acceleration for acceleration through the mountains for two years.

But there will be no Lance "guiding" him next year. It's a good thing Vino will be in a new team competing to win, otherwise we may well see a stalemate where no-one wants to be the one to open up the battle and loose.