20-07-2005 02:56									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij But the point is that Armstrong (a great champion, don't misunderstand me) won next to nothing in the years he won the TdF. Merckx won almost everything. I'm sure Merckx would have won a lot more than five Tours had he be concentrating on it, like Armstrong does.

And conversely Armstrong would have won some other evets if he had concentrated on that. So I base my reasoning on what did happen and not on what might have happened had either acted differently.

Armstrong was too focused on the tour de France to be the greatest cyclist ever. I give that to Merckx without question. In what actually happened at TdFs I have to give the nod the Armstrong.

	20-07-2005 03:31									#92
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quote: That´s fighting spirit if I ever saw one...

Don't get me wrong, there's no argument here.

quote: Armstrong was too focused on the tour de France to be the greatest cyclist ever. I give that to Merckx without question. In what actually happened at TdFs I have to give the nod the Armstrong.

The moment Armstrong wins as many green jerseys,King of Mountains jerseys and stages, than maybe I would agree with you. Just winning two more yellow jerseys with today's technology just doesn't cut it.

	20-07-2005 03:38									#93
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But Tour de France is the WorldChampionship of cycling after all. And Lance has won 7 times, therefore he should be the greatest cyclist ever IMO.

	20-07-2005 03:45									#94
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The Tour de France is the Tour de France. The World Championship Cycling is the World Championship Cycling. They are two different events, and Eddy won the World Championship three or four times as well.

There is no argument, The Cannibal > The Boss

	20-07-2005 05:16									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: Armstrong was too focused on the tour de France to be the greatest cyclist ever. I give that to Merckx without question. In what actually happened at TdFs I have to give the nod the Armstrong. The moment Armstrong wins as many green jerseys,King of Mountains jerseys and stages, than maybe I would agree with you. Just winning two more yellow jerseys with today's technology just doesn't cut it.

Sorry we must agree to disagree. To take anything away from Lance Armstrong as best Tour de France rider is like saying Gretzky wasn't the best hockey player ever because he never won best defenseman, best goalie or best defensive forward.

My personal belief is that Lance Armstrong could have won more stages, and definitely the King of the Mountains had he tried for it. But I don't assess him based on that. To me, SEVEN Straight finishes in yellow is enough for greatest TdF rider. Undefeated for 7 years and completely dominant and retiring at the top-- wow ( I assume he wins this TdF)

	20-07-2005 07:04									#96
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quote: eddie merckx didnt win 7 in a row - armstrong did. armstrong is the best cyclist ever.

Yep.

	20-07-2005 07:54									#97
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quote: 1968 - Won Tour of Italy (also won King of Mountains jersey & green jersey) 1970 - Won Tour de France (also won King of Mountains jersey & eight stage wins) 1971 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & world road championship 1972 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & Tour of Italy 1973 - Didn't compete in Tour de France but won Tour of Italy (also won points jersey) & Tour of Spain 1974 - Won Tour de France, Tour of Italy & world road championship 1975 - Finished second in the Tour de France & broke the world hour record In 1971, Merckx won 54 of the 120 professional races he entered. At his peak, between 1969 and 1973, he won 250 of the 650 races he contested. During his professional career, he won 445 of the 1,582 races he entered. Tour of Lombardy - won twice Paris-Nice - won three times Milan-San Remo - won seven times Paris Roubaix - won three times Liege-Bastogne-Liege - won five times Amstel Gold - won twice Tour of Flanders - won twice Het Volk - won twice Ghent-Wevelgem - won four times Fleche-Wallonne - won four times Tour of Switzerland - won once Paris-Brussels - won once You were saying...?

I was sayiing that Armstrong won the tour de france 7 times IN A ROW. Eddie never dominated like that. the tour de france is the toughest cycling event in the world, and when it came to comparing how the two cyclists did on the toughest course in the world of cycling, lance armstrong completly destroys merckx.

	20-07-2005 10:16									#98
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The Australians were having a good tour until the tragedy yesterday.

	20-07-2005 11:51									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij But the point is that Armstrong (a great champion, don't misunderstand me) won next to nothing in the years he won the TdF. Merckx won almost everything. I'm sure Merckx would have won a lot more than five Tours had he be concentrating on it, like Armstrong does.

While I actually agree that Merckx is the greatest, one has to also take into account that many of the cyclists that Merckx competed against also spread themselves thin by competing in more races.

	20-07-2005 14:17									#100
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There was an interesting statistic on the TV text pages here this morning. If Armstrong is still the yellow jersey holder at the end of today's stage he will have picked up 79 yellow jersey results (being first in the GC at the end of a stage). That will tie him in second place alongside Hinault - but a long way back from Merckx who got 111 yellows.

Obviously this is partly due to the TDF being longer in Merckx's day than now but still an interesting comparison.

	20-07-2005 21:54									#101
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Decent stage today

Leaders relaxed and Discovery let 2 or their riders join a break that everyone let go out 20 minutes. The only team that chased at all were concerned their guy could fall out of 10th place in the GC.

Another Discovery stage win (salvodelli)was a nice reward for a team where most of the guys know their job is doing the hard slugging where someone else gets the accolades.

Oh and the long break meant that Discovery passed T-Mobile in the overall team time (best 3 riders). T Mobile was hurt by the withdrawal of Kloden there-- I haven't yet seen the reason but he was rumoured to be not feeling great from the start. It just suprised me that he would quit on a pretty easy amd lazy stage after having worked hard through the mountains

	20-07-2005 22:12									#102
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quote: T Mobile was hurt by the withdrawal of Kloden there-- I haven't yet seen the reason but he was rumoured to be not feeling great from the start.

IIRC he broke a small bone in his hand yesterday.

	20-07-2005 22:20									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander While I actually agree that Merckx is the greatest, one has to also take into account that many of the cyclists that Merckx competed against also spread themselves thin by competing in more races.

Which actually works as more of an argument for Merckx than one for Armstrong. Very few of Armstrong's opponents focus as much on the Tour as he does. Basso also rode the Giro, for instance.

	21-07-2005 00:31									#104
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quote: IIRC he broke a small bone in his hand yesterday.

plus hes like 10 minutes out so he might as well drop out - he aint catching armstrong.

	21-07-2005 02:39									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia plus hes like 10 minutes out so he might as well drop out - he aint catching armstrong.

True enough but even top 10 looks good individually and T-Mobil would have liked to have the best team time

	21-07-2005 21:10									#106
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Stage 17 complete

Pretty typical of the flatter stages really. people attempted breakaways until there was one composed of folks that no one cared enough to chase down ( best placed was somethinmg like 38 minutes behind in the GC with none of the contenders for green jersey). That break got a big lead and held an 11 minute gap to the end. There were a couple of short but steep climbs at the end that broke up the groups but the 10 man breakaway took the top 10 places.( all finishing within 2 and a half minutes of the winner)

On the last climbs Basso attcked and again only Armstron and Ullrich responded with Cadel Evans -- EVANS ???- - the guy has been inspired the last two stages and this latest result allowed him to pass Vino in the standings for 7th overall.

Rasmussen, leipheimer, Vino and Mancebo finished 37 seconds back of the Armstrong group.

Congrats to Serrano on a hard fought stage win

	21-07-2005 21:11									#107
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yet again, the boss keeps control. since no one seems willing to change the status quo, hes gonna win again.

	21-07-2005 21:30									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yet again, the boss keeps control. since no one seems willing to change the status quo, hes gonna win again.

since no one seems ABLE to change the status quo, hes gonna win again.

Basso keeps trying-- I think he is willing but when you are more than 2 minutes behind someone that matches your every acceleration and shows no difficulties, your ABILITY to change things is what is in question

	22-07-2005 15:21									#109
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So, once Lance retires, who's going to win next year based on their performance this year?

	22-07-2005 15:32									#110
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Ivan Basso looks to be favorite then, he has the skills and the team to accomplish it.

	22-07-2005 20:17									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Ivan Basso looks to be favorite then, he has the skills and the team to accomplish it.

He does look to be the heir apparent but Ullrich will have a pride thing going and apparently Vino is team-shopping for a team where he can be the clear leader and have sufficient support. Apparently he wasn't too happy when Kloden and Ullrich helped chase him down on some of his break attempts

	22-07-2005 20:47									#112
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Well, yea, Kloeden and Ullrich pursuing Vino looked incredibly stupid...

I wonder where Vino will end up. He's asking for a fair share of money, and the team will need a good budget if they want to compose a good team around him. Ullrich has always lacked the proper discipline to win it again.
Basso has his team in place, and is ripe with regard to age. What I'm more interested in is the proliferation of some of the younger riders like Mancebo, Popovych, and Evans.

	23-07-2005 01:18									#113
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quote: Apparently he wasn't too happy when Kloden and Ullrich helped chase him down on some of his break attempts

dont expect popvych to do as well next year as trhis year. last years maillot blanc winner is now two hours behind lance armstrong. he finished in the top 10 last year i think.

	23-07-2005 01:20									#114
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yesterday it was funny wactching <<'ti blanc>> taking the inside of a switchback where the commentators said the grade reached 25%. he just hit a wall and everyone passed him on the echappee. ooops, francaise des jeux prolly forgot to tell him that.

	23-07-2005 01:45									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia grade reached 25%.

	23-07-2005 02:16									#116
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Valverde is the future.

	23-07-2005 03:22									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia dont expect popvych to do as well next year as trhis year. last years maillot blanc winner is now two hours behind lance armstrong. he finished in the top 10 last year i think.

I don't see how the result of a single young rider has any influence on the prospects of another young rider. I haven't followed popvych closely emough to truly assess his chances but I have noticed that he has finished well in most stages. He sits a solid 13th about 15 minutes back of Armstrong, which is quite a good placing considering his role is to primarily to support Armstrong.

I thought I heard that Discovery was considering making him their team leader next year. He finished a respectable 17th in the first time trial and he does seem able to climb pretty well also and has finished in the top half of the field in EVERY stage.

	23-07-2005 05:51									#118
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quote: I wonder where Vino will end up.

AG2R

	23-07-2005 06:13									#119
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quote: I don't see how the result of a single young rider has any influence on the prospects of another young rider. I haven't followed popvych closely emough to truly assess his chances but I have noticed that he has finished well in most stages. He sits a solid 13th about 15 minutes back of Armstrong, which is quite a good placing considering his role is to primarily to support Armstrong. I thought I heard that Discovery was considering making him their team leader next year. He finished a respectable 17th in the first time trial and he does seem able to climb pretty well also and has finished in the top half of the field in EVERY stage.

thomas voeckler also had the maillot blanc until the last time trial, and this year he is also like two hours behind.

	24-07-2005 00:26									#120
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ITS ALL OVER!!!! LANCE ARMSTRONG WINS THE TIME TRAIL, HE HAS WON THE TOUR DE FRANCE AND IS THE GREATEST CYCLIST OF ALL TIME. 7 IN A ROW. INCOMPARABLE.

USA USA USA USA USA USA!!!!!!