18-07-2005 12:58									#61
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Robbie McEwen

	18-07-2005 13:00									#62
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. . . got lucky that tom boonen dropped out, and now has a clear shot to repeat with the green.

	18-07-2005 16:45									#63
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quote: Originally posted by alva Sure of that?

Lets see

2 001 ARMSTRONG Lance DSC USA 00' 56"
16 007 POPOVYCH Yaroslav DSC UKR 04' 18
40 004 HINCAPIE George DSC USA 13' 28"
60 002 AZEVEDO José DSC POR 21' 25"
61 008 RUBIERA José Luis DSC ESP 21' 25"
62 009 SAVOLDELLI Paolo DSC ITA 21' 25"
139 006 PADRNOS Pavel DSC CZE 35' 50"
154 005 NOVAL GONZALEZ Benjamin DSC ESP 35' 50"

Manuel Beltran -- Abandoned stage 12

Source http://www.letour.fr/2005/TDF/LIVE/...sement/ITE.html

So yup-- Armstrong was alone for much of stage 14 and Popovych added 2:22 to his lead in the white jersey standings. My only inaccuracy was that popovych was 3:22 back of armstrong not"four minutes"

	18-07-2005 16:51									#64
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Did he win yet?

Its looking better and better. In stage 15 he got attacked again and once again his team got dropped with the obvious exception of Hincapie who went with an early breakaway and won the stage This was a great accomplishment for Hincapie but again meant Armstrong rode alone ( well with no temmates)

Stage 15 results

1 004 HINCAPIE George DSC USA
2 068 PEREIRO SIO Oscar PHO ESP 00' 06"
3 103 CAUCCHIOLI Pietro C.A ITA 00' 38"
4 052 BOOGERD Michael RAB NED 00' 57"
5 143 BROCHARD Laurent BTL FRA 02' 19"
6 021 BASSO Ivan CSC ITA 05' 04"
7 001 ARMSTRONG Lance DSC USA 05' 04"
8 017 SEVILLA Oscar TMO ESP 06' 28"
9 011 ULLRICH Jan TMO GER 06' 28"
10 057 RASMUSSEN Mickael RAB DEN 06' 32"
11 031 MANCEBO Francisco IBA ESP 06' 32"
12 019 VINOKOUROV Alexandre TMO KAZ 07' 33"
13 164 LEIPHEIMER Levi GST USA 07' 54"
14 101 MOREAU Christophe C.A FRA 08' 14"
15 199 ZUBELDIA Haimar EUS ESP 08' 47"

It was again probably disheartening to Ullrich to see Basso and Armstrong ride away from him. While they only put another 24 seconds on him, the fact that he gets dropped isn't good for his chances

	18-07-2005 17:06									#65
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Its tough to see Armstrong not winning now. Only stage 16 has significant mountains and I can't see anyone taking more than two minutes out of Armstrong in the time trial at stage 20, particularly Basso.

The standings overall

1 001 ARMSTRONG Lance DSC USA
2 021 BASSO Ivan CSC ITA 02' 46"
3 057 RASMUSSEN Mickael RAB DEN 03' 09"
4 011 ULLRICH Jan TMO GER 05' 58"
5 031 MANCEBO Francisco IBA ESP 06' 31"
6 164 LEIPHEIMER Levi GST USA 07' 35"
7 066 LANDIS Floyd PHO USA 09' 33"
8 019 VINOKOUROV Alexandre TMO KAZ 09' 38"
9 101 MOREAU Christophe C.A FRA 11' 47"
10 014 KLÖDEN Andréas TMO GER 12' 01"
11 044 EVANS Cadel DVL AUS 12' 57"
12 007 POPOVYCH Yaroslav DSC UKR 14' 27"

So the only ways Armstrong doesn't win are now down to

1. Crash or injury
2. Armstrong cracking going over that single HC mountain tomorrow ( with cats 1 ,3 and 4 thrown in)-- I just don't see that happening
3. Somehow allowing someone that matters to get away in a long break and not being able to track them down

Since the idea of Armstrong cracking on an "easier" stage after a rest day seems a ludicrous idea, and it would be immense stupidity to allow anyone within 10 minutes in the GC to get away on a long break, its basically down to crash or injury as things that could make Armstrong not win.

	18-07-2005 23:41									#66
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yeah, all he pretty much has to do now is stay on his bike, and he wins. only ullrich can 'challenege' him on the time trial, and hes 5+ minutes behind, AND got passed the last time around. (I can see armstrong passing basso again on the time trial if he stays in 2nd place)

	19-07-2005 02:43									#67
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How come no black people in cycling sport?

	19-07-2005 02:47									#68
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Black men can't cycle.

	19-07-2005 02:48									#69
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Yo.

	19-07-2005 03:05									#70
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Didn't stage 14 and 15 this year seem like deja vu from last year? I mean Armstrong and Basso pacing each other with Ullrich dogging them but ultimately dropping back.

Its a shame Basso lost time in the time trials since it would have been cool to have seen those two contest those stages from an equal start. As it stands, Armstrong had no incentive to gain time against Basso. Basso knew that Armstrong has enough time on him so that once Armstrong clearly matched Basso's acceleration without difficulty, it seemed pointless to make a gut busting effort to drop him when the best result might be a gain of a paltry few seconds and the worst result could see him exhausted. basso is probably realistic enough now to know her is racing for second

	19-07-2005 03:07									#71
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yeah but when armstrong retires, basso becomes the favorite (hes 3' ahead of ullrich)

	19-07-2005 03:39									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Its a shame Basso lost time in the time trials

It's a shame that Basso competed in the Giro d'Italia

	19-07-2005 04:39									#73
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quote: In stage 15 he got attacked again

Attacked by who?

	19-07-2005 04:40									#74
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his own teammate, hincapie.

	19-07-2005 04:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia his own teammate, hincapie.

I hope you aren't serious...

	19-07-2005 04:45									#76
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nah

	19-07-2005 07:44									#77
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green jacket is more interesting now.

	19-07-2005 20:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni It's a shame that Basso competed in the Giro d'Italia

Agreed. The OLN commentators mentioned that repeatedly and it does seem obvious that it is tough to be at your peak when competing hard soon before an event.

Contrast this with Armstrong who considers EVERY other event to be training for the Tour de France

	19-07-2005 20:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia his own teammate, hincapie.

Funny. Hincapie was allowed to go with a breakaway of people that weren't contenders and then could draft since he knew if Armstrong needed him he would have to wait anyway.

The breakaway was irrelevant to the yellow. When it stayed in the lead ( and with Armstrong doing well), Hincapie got permission to try for the win


The attacks were interesting as they came from the T-Mobile trio again but none of them came close to succeeding. Conversely when Basso accelerated and Armstrong followed, everyone else was dropped

	19-07-2005 20:26									#80
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Stage 16

Nothing important changes except Evans puts on a tremendous effort in memory of an Australian cyclist killed in training. Evans had nothing left at the finish as he had been pacemaking much of the day resulting in a lead that vauted him into 7th place in the GC. Oscar Pereiro gets a well deserved stage win .

There were some attacks but Armstrong finished comfortably with his main rivals

	19-07-2005 22:54									#81
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Fight for green

Its down to a 3 man fight between Husovd, O'Grady and McEwen which strikes me as a little odd since Mc Ewen is in 3rd place but has won THREE stages whikle the two guys leading him have some second place finishes only

	19-07-2005 22:56									#82
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They focus on the intermediate sprints. McEwen doesn't give a sh*t about those and just wants to win the stage. Fair enough, I suppose

	20-07-2005 00:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni They focus on the intermediate sprints. McEwen doesn't give a sh*t about those and just wants to win the stage. Fair enough, I suppose

Ya -- I understand HOW it happened but it still strikes me as odd-- I would have thought the premium on stage wins would be enough that a 3 stage winner would at least have a little lead.

	20-07-2005 01:08									#84
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here's a fun fact: Robbie McEwen's son is named Ewen McEwen.

	20-07-2005 01:11									#85
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quote: Contrast this with Armstrong who considers EVERY other event to be training for the Tour de France

So Eddie Merckx is still is the best cyclist ever...

	20-07-2005 01:21									#86
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eddie merckx didnt win 7 in a row - armstrong did. armstrong is the best cyclist ever.

	20-07-2005 01:43									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia eddie merckx didnt win 7 in a row - armstrong did. armstrong is the best cyclist ever.

1968 - Won Tour of Italy (also won King of Mountains jersey & green jersey)
1970 - Won Tour de France (also won King of Mountains jersey & eight stage wins)
1971 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & world road championship
1972 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & Tour of Italy
1973 - Didn't compete in Tour de France but won Tour of Italy (also won points jersey) & Tour of Spain
1974 - Won Tour de France, Tour of Italy & world road championship
1975 - Finished second in the Tour de France & broke the world hour record

In 1971, Merckx won 54 of the 120 professional races he entered. At his peak, between 1969 and 1973, he won 250 of the 650 races he contested. During his professional career, he won 445 of the 1,582 races he entered.

Tour of Lombardy - won twice
Paris-Nice - won three times
Milan-San Remo - won seven times
Paris Roubaix - won three times
Liege-Bastogne-Liege - won five times
Amstel Gold - won twice
Tour of Flanders - won twice
Het Volk - won twice
Ghent-Wevelgem - won four times
Fleche-Wallonne - won four times
Tour of Switzerland - won once
Paris-Brussels - won once

You were saying...?

	20-07-2005 02:17									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: Contrast this with Armstrong who considers EVERY other event to be training for the Tour de France So Eddie Merckx is still is the best cyclist ever...

to me yes but I am now at a point od considering Armstrong the best TOUR DE FRANCE cyclist ever.

Its actually tough to compare the two. Obviously Armstrong at his peak would kich the butt of Merckx at his peak but if you equalize for equipment, training, nutrition and technology who the heck really knows who would win.


As for their records, they are very different, Merckx raced everything and won a lot of things as the recited record shows. He also got beat but he has so very many accolades from so very many races that the sheer weight of awards is immense.

Conversely Armstrong looks poised to be undefeated for a 7 year period . I cannot consider him less great because he wins tactically, intelligenlty and scientifically. In the past 7 years I don't know that we have ever seen how good Armstrong may really be since he rides well enough to get a sufficient edge and then is clearly satisfied to play it safe and shadow his rivals. He's the golfer with a two -stroke lead on 18 that lays up rather than trying to drive over the river.


For me, Merckx record is just too much to discount . . . so best overall cyclist ever - -- Merckx .. . . but limit it to only the TDF and consider no other events and I go to Armstrong-- While Merckx other accomplishments are impressive, the #1 prize is the yellow at the end-- There SEVEN in a row will speak volumes, particularly when you consider that Armstrong won so convincingly each time. I watch the stages and he matches his rivals moves with what looks like ease. I'd be disconcerted if I was Basso since you start to think that there is no way to drop the guy

	20-07-2005 02:27									#89
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But the point is that Armstrong (a great champion, don't misunderstand me) won next to nothing in the years he won the TdF. Merckx won almost everything. I'm sure Merckx would have won a lot more than five Tours had he be concentrating on it, like Armstrong does.

	20-07-2005 02:55									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij 1968 - Won Tour of Italy (also won King of Mountains jersey & green jersey) 1970 - Won Tour de France (also won King of Mountains jersey & eight stage wins) 1971 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & world road championship 1972 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & Tour of Italy 1973 - Didn't compete in Tour de France but won Tour of Italy (also won points jersey) & Tour of Spain 1974 - Won Tour de France, Tour of Italy & world road championship 1975 - Finished second in the Tour de France & broke the world hour record In 1971, Merckx won 54 of the 120 professional races he entered. At his peak, between 1969 and 1973, he won 250 of the 650 races he contested. During his professional career, he won 445 of the 1,582 races he entered. Tour of Lombardy - won twice Paris-Nice - won three times Milan-San Remo - won seven times Paris Roubaix - won three times Liege-Bastogne-Liege - won five times Amstel Gold - won twice Tour of Flanders - won twice Het Volk - won twice Ghent-Wevelgem - won four times Fleche-Wallonne - won four times Tour of Switzerland - won once Paris-Brussels - won once You were saying...?

But Merckx didn´t have to beat near fatal cancer and still win like 5 times after that... That´s fighting spirit if I ever saw one...