08-08-2005 05:36									#61
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Euphorica has the turn. I expect they will attack our stack with force, since the Horde have not yet presented themselves as a target.

This could be make or break for us

	08-08-2005 05:46									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars It would feel better to attack the Horde They deserve it more than the LBs, More to the point, we dont want the Horde and AM getting to strong picking over Babylon's Bones.

Indeed, presuming we are successful in destroying Euphorica, how and when to deal with the Horde will be our perennial question.

Lost Boys are a good target since their lands are of more immediate use....not to mention the fact that their offensive military sucks (although a few quick Numidian Merc builds will stop most offensives in their tracks). However, the Horde have grown strong and are the largest civ, so present a long term threat. Any action against the Horde must be taken in league with AM, and we may not be in a position to do this until there are only 3 teams left.

More important though is our government switch. We must do this fairly soon after emerging from our GA, and we need a period of peace to do this. I am hoping we can enter anarchy once Euphorica are destroyed.

As for government choice, I still favour Republic....which was the favourite last time we debated the issue. We are currently the only civ to possess Republic, and I believe both AM and Babylon are in Monarchy. If we can afford the unit support and remain at peace, Republic with its bonus commerce and slightly lower corruption is the obvious choice.

	08-08-2005 10:34									#63
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Aqua, the problem is going to be remaining at peace. Assuming Euphorica and Babylon join the ash heap of history relatively soon, that still leaves the LB threatening our southern flank and the Horde and AM grown a bit larger. Yes, we've won a measure of respect that will make somebody think a little longer about invading us down the road, but with our immortals fast becoming obsolete and the typical course of human memory, that won't alter the ultimate decision for very much longer, if it even still does.

I'm not opposed to Republic, per se, but unless you can convince me the game isn't going to continue in the same vein it has so far, I have to favor Monarchy.

	08-08-2005 10:53									#64
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Actually I think you will find that Monarchy was the favoured tech.. Both I and Solomwi favour it, and I recall that Masuro did as well.

Republic is great, if you have a SMALL army, and no plans to increase it. We don't have a small army.. The number of cities we'd need to support our current army would be huge. More cities than I think we'll ever have in this game..

	08-08-2005 12:15									#65
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Ok, some pertinent points there. Now just to be the devil's advocate, what are your views on Feudalism vs Monarchy?

	08-08-2005 13:10									#66
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I was going to post that.. I have never, ever, used the stock version of Feudalism. I've messed about with it in the AU mod version.

We need to properly look into this matter, and to do that we need data that I dont think we currently have. we'd need to know the number and size of cities we'd need to support our expected army size in each of the gvmts, and an estimate of how much trade we'd have under each. it's a fairly simple set of equations, but the data is hard to gather or estimate..

	08-08-2005 13:25									#67
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Although you've both raised some interesting points against Republic, there is no doubt that under the right conditions Republic is a far superior government and so I'd like to do this discussion some justice before just abandoning it.

The first and most important issue of course is the atmosphere of war that has permeated this game thus far. If this tendency continues, I agree that Republic is a rather risky approach. However, once Euphorica and perhaps Babylon are removed, the landscape will have changed substantially and teams will more than likely be concerned about keeping up economically rather than just having the best military. The war-like approach of the Horde and Euphorica early on was really an extension of the old Archer-rush strategy, and cannot be maintained into the middle ages. For example, the Horde's Horses and Swords are going to be outdated faily soon, and to upgrade them all required an economy that is hooting along. Ignoring Marketplaces and Libraries is a strategy that is sure to lead to failure in the longer term. In short, noone can afford to keep themselves on a war footing forever.

Secondly, the key success drivers in running a Republic in this game are luxuries, Marketplaces and city size. Once most of your cities have grown to size 7, unit support is not much worse than Monarchy and is usually far exceeded by the commerce bonus and the slight improvement in corruption. Number of cities is also important, and I don't see that as an issue once Euphorica is removed from our ancestral lands to the north

We then need to secure at least 3, preferably 4 or 5 luxuries and build Marketplaces everywhere. Assuming we can gain a peace of sorts, trading for luxuries should not be too difficult. With this infrastructure in place, war weariness in times of war is usually controllable.

Under these conditions, I maintain that Republic is a far superior government to Monarchy and will in fact allow us to maintain a decent sized military, and we will have sufficient income earning potential to keep them upgraded to current technology.

	08-08-2005 13:29									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars we'd need to know the number and size of cities we'd need to support our expected army size in each of the gvmts, and an estimate of how much trade we'd have under each. it's a fairly simple set of equations, but the data is hard to gather or estimate..

I suggest Solomwi puts together a scenario based on his spreadsheet, if he has time.

For the purposes of this analysis we should probably limit our number of cities to about 15 or 18, with some likely actual city sites and a variety of populations. That should give us a good indication of where we may be in the forseeable future.

	08-08-2005 22:12									#69
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I can do that today, for our empire as is. If somebody wants to put together a dot-map and post it, we can get a consensus for the estimate of future cities and it will be a small matter to put those into the spreadsheet.

	10-08-2005 06:18									#70
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It seems from Ljube's post in the "Abandoned Towns" thread, that Euphorica has abandoned 2 towns. Most likely Nirvana, and possibly U2. No big surprise of course, but still

We received no battle report either, so perhaps they have pulled back their remaining forces for a last stand at their capital.

	11-08-2005 11:56									#71
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Paddy's screenshot confirms that it's Nirvana and U2. The more they consolidate their forces, the punier our stack looks, since they'll be able to attack it first whenever we get to the part where they make their stand.

	19-08-2005 11:25									#72
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Paddy has asked that we make our way up the east coast towards Beach Boys, while they go for the town on the west coast, then we both meet at the capital Abba after those 2 towns are abandoned.

I'm thinking instead that we divert directly towards Abba in the hope that we may be able to capture the city instead of them abandoning it, though of course they will have a substantial force waiting there for their final stand.

Comments?

	21-08-2005 07:52									#73
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1100BC

In the absence of any advice, I continued the stack on the way to Beach Boys, since I didn't want them to approach Abba and be annihilated by every single unit that Euphorica has put there for a last stand while the Horde get away yet again with minimal losses.

Note that LB are now in Anarchy.

We also have 2 Elite Immortals in Fields of Desolation, courtesy of 4 Barb Horsemen

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	21-08-2005 07:57									#74
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And the Euphorican territories where our main stack is making the final push....

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	21-08-2005 08:05									#75
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Demographics, reflecting our growing size but falling stats due to other teams being in better governments....

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	21-08-2005 08:09									#76
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and finally, our city builds. Note we have 2 Settlers next turn - one will go towards the Wheat to setup Mt Massacre as a future Worker pump (which is why a Granary is being built there), while I suggest the other goes towards Beach Boys to secure the Furs.

I've also switched Antioch to a Library (2 turns) to underpin our growing research superiority......

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	21-08-2005 13:43									#77
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rather than a library, I'd go with a gran, worker or settler (settler being my choice) We will soon be in anarchy, and will get more benefit from a settler during this period. we can complete a library faster once in Republic

	21-08-2005 18:05									#78
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Republic?

Our GA still has another what, 6 or 7 turns to run? We have plenty of time to spit out Settlers.....Granaries are more important, and so are Libraries.

But I'm flexible on this.....would certianly prefer a Granary to a Settler at this stage.

	21-08-2005 18:48									#79
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i dont see any benefit in a library - by the time it's finished we will either be in, or about to be in, anarchy. I'd rather have a gran or settlers for that than a library we'll get 0 benefit from.

Once in republic, I suspect our science slider will be so low, libraries will cost more in maintenace than they gain us, we should instead build marketplaces and yet more settlers

	31-08-2005 06:45									#80
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Somebody - supposedly an anonymous Horde member - has sent 1889 an email sugesting that they form an alliance against us. Included were charts and diagrams purporting to show our military composition and locations. While I haven't had the opportunity to check the numbers against a save, it looks fairly accurate.

I am at a loss to explain where this information could have come from, unless it was a spy within our own camp, a mod looking into the save, or someone using a program to crack our password.

To be honest, I am rapidly losing interest at this point. Particularly as it seems the Horde may have double-crossed us by cutting a deal with Euphorica.

	31-08-2005 06:58									#81
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All this double-crossing is indeed getting wearisome. I don't think I'll join any more of these games in the future. Too messy and, frankly, disappointing because everyone is stabbing everyone else in the back.
What should we do? I'm tempted to say make peace with Euphorica, wait until the supposedly anti-Horde alliance is on its feet, and then join it. If a Horde member has sent classified information to other nations then we can justifiably break our alliance (such as it is) and go to war with them.

	31-08-2005 07:09									#82
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Let's wait until Moonbars gets up this afternoon. I think he has been in communication with Plato, so he may have something to tell us about all these strange goings-on.

	31-08-2005 16:01									#83
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, have posted that info in the other thread.. was late when plato spoke to me and I didnt post it last night. I am also rather bored of teams backstabbing, breaking rules when it suits them, etc etc.

I have posted to the save-discussion thread that we will be holding the save until a mod makes a decision on removing Euphoirca from the game for holding the save over 24hours time and time again.

Technically, they are cheating as this latest delay, and possibly the others, have actually been so that Euphorica can plot and come up with schemes. We are the victims of this latest "we can't play, sorry" tactic, as they had a chance to be decived by the horde.

Perhaps we can have their last save replayed and skipped

	31-08-2005 16:33									#84
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Right I have now actually played the save.. not sent it yet however.

SD is size 6, needs an taxman to avoid a riot, would grow to size 7 if I raised lux slider & worked him, so decided to leave slider as is, use him as a taxman this turn & pop a worker out (SD makes 10 SPT)

Building pikemen in Aquarius and IS - 2 turns to finish.
Building immortal in Marcopolis - 6 turns (5 spt - no waste)
Switched to Walls in Sidon Phoenix
Settler moved to south-east hill across from wheat
Settler moved towards new city site 777 of antioch

Stack moved 2. it's very very weak, and we may lose the whole lot, cats included, if Euphorica follow up. There was no safe tile to move to, so I picked the hill that gets us closer to being able to pull out, and leave Euphorica's units on bad open ground if they do follow-through..

Smaller stack of horse and immortal re-enforced with other immortal, damaged immortal forted. Elite horse attacked and killed Euphorican radier, didnt generate a MGL, boo-hoo.

Vet immortal killed barb in south, no promotion.

My government sim is complete, btw, I played out until our GA ended, making settlers pretty much exclusivly. if we can afford to switch the 2 pike builds to settlers, Republic and Monarchy are pretty evenly balanced. If not, Monarchy would be better. It's only two cities, but the final decision depends on how secure we feel when the GA ends. Not Very would be my guess..

	31-08-2005 16:48									#85
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Screenshot..

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	01-09-2005 06:31									#86
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I would recommend we settle that new town 1 tile 7 of where you are pointing.....ie, 114 of Sidon Phoenix. This gives a little more room once town sizes reach 8, plus if we build culture it gives us the border advantage over the Horde's town of Metallica (which I thought they renamed, but apparently not!).

Actually, I originally intended that settler for a position 111 of Antioch, but it doesnt' much matter - I think that should be one of our next sites.

Also, should that settler on the hill near the wheat settle as is, or move one tile 3? Is there room for another town on the point further 3 of there? I can't remember.

	01-09-2005 07:44									#87
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I believe we should withdraw our stack to the confines of our Empire, where they should heal and be held in reserve for future wars.

We should become insular and not attack anyone else for the time being. We should build more Pikemen for defence, and continue to grow our economy. We should also move towards Gunpowder and secure Saltpeter at the earliest opportunity before others find out where it is.

It may be that the other 3 teams left take on the Horde. We should remain neutral and protect our units. We have suffered enough, and have lost many more shields of units while other teams have been able to concentrate on infrastrucutre builds.

The Horde will attack one of them soon enough. They cannot keep so many units in the field and hope to progress economically. Either way, their days are numbered.

	01-09-2005 08:10									#88
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I think that is a good plan. None of them can be trusted so let's keep to ourselves.

	01-09-2005 13:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I would recommend we settle that new town 1 tile 7 of where you are pointing.....ie, 114 of Sidon Phoenix. This gives a little more room once town sizes reach 8, plus if we build culture it gives us the border advantage over the Horde's town of Metallica (which I thought they renamed, but apparently not!).

there is no fresh water, I doubt the town will ever reach size 7.

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Actually, I originally intended that settler for a position 111 of Antioch, but it doesnt' much matter - I think that should be one of our next sites.

That settler was going north towards the furs - that isn't an option now

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Also, should that settler on the hill near the wheat settle as is, or move one tile 3? Is there room for another town on the point further 3 of there? I can't remember.

there might be, I quite like the city on the hill though - let's see next turn.

	01-09-2005 14:03									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I believe we should withdraw our stack to the confines of our Empire, where they should heal and be held in reserve for future wars.

agreed - our involvement with Euphorica must end.. perhaps we can still get BB from the horde if they capture it, or settle the site if they destroy it. Might be an idea to leave the stack where it is if it is not counter attacked this turn - it will still be in range of Euphorica if it moves again next tick becase of that bloody river, I think..

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 We should become insular and not attack anyone else for the time being. We should build more Pikemen for defence, and continue to grow our economy. We should also move towards Gunpowder and secure Saltpeter at the earliest opportunity before others find out where it is.

I agree - and switch governments.

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 It may be that the other 3 teams left take on the Horde. We should remain neutral and protect our units. We have suffered enough, and have lost many more shields of units while other teams have been able to concentrate on infrastrucutre builds.

I disagree here. We should become involved in the anti-horde alliance. they are our enemies..

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 The Horde will attack one of them soon enough. They cannot keep so many units in the field and hope to progress economically. Either way, their days are numbered.

well, this is true.. but remember even before we lost 5 immortals, we where "weak" to the horde. I'd say they can easily take on all the rememaining teams and still win.