19-07-2005 10:58									#31
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And while we're at it, lets penalize all Scots and Newfies for talking so funny.

Lets be real here, the big issue with Ebonics is that its spoken by black people. Blacks who speak perfect standard English are still penalized by society plenty as it is.

But it appears that the concensus of the boards is:

Linguistic Genocide = Good!!

	19-07-2005 10:59									#32
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Well done, fellas.

	19-07-2005 11:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Good plan. Because trying to convert them to standard speech for the past 150+ years hasn't ghettoized or marginalized them either. I say its time for new thinking and a new plan.

No, wrong. In fact, it hasn't ghettoized them -- as is evident by the millions of African Americans who can, in fact, communicate in standard English.

What's ghettoized these kids is not what they've been taught, but that they haven't been taught at all. What's ghettoized them is that they're poor, and education in the US is financed locally, so people with no money end up going to sh*tty schools. And what's ghettoized them is that they've had no reason to aspire to leaving the 'hood, so why should they bnother with mainstream knowledge?

Your damned right it's time for a new plan. A new plan for financing public education. A new plan for holding schools accountable for their studets' performances. A new plan for renewing the American dream of class mobility. But not this. This is nothing more than a plan to create a permanent underclass.

	19-07-2005 11:04									#34
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Forget it Boris, the ball is rolling. This tripe will be passed off as acceptable and in 10-20 years the world will get to hear another variant of "The MAN is keepin' me down!" excuse when these Ebonics flunkees discover no good-paying company wants to hire someone who can't friggin' speak English inspite of it being their native-tongue.

	19-07-2005 11:04									#35
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And while we're at it, lets penalize all Scots and Newfies for talking so funny. Lets be real here, the big issue with Ebonics is that its spoken by black people. Blacks who speak perfect standard English are still penalized by society plenty as it is. But it appears that the concensus of the boards is: Linguistic Genocide = Good!!

I usually like your posts, Jimmy, but you really need to buy a clue. Ebonics has spread (within its limited population) without any help from the public education system. How the hell can keeping it out of public education -- that is, maintaining the status quo in which it already thrives -- result in "linguistic genocide?" That's absurd on its face.

	19-07-2005 11:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And while we're at it, lets penalize all Scots and Newfies for talking so funny.

Who's talking about penalizing anyone? Nobody will be fined for speaking "ebonics."

quote: Lets be real here, the big issue with Ebonics is that its spoken by black people. Blacks who speak perfect standard English are still penalized by society plenty as it is.

There are plenty of other dialects that don't get any consideration from public schools or general society. How about Creole?

quote: But it appears that the concensus of the boards is: Linguistic Genocide = Good!!

Nobody is suppressing dialects. If people want to speak "ebonics" at home, that's their right. The issue is, should schools be teaching it and coddling people who speak only in this dialect and never learn proper English?

	19-07-2005 11:27									#37
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You all are acting as if one cannot speak proper and polite Ebonics. "Fa shizzle my nizzle" is not Ebonics, its Snoop Dogg talk.

And what can possibly result from officially recognizing, and not denouncing, Ebonics in schools other than to give those who speak it a sense of accomplishment and pride in who they are? That can go a long way...

I'm not sure if you guys realize it, but you are indirectly supporting a system which is systematically prejudice towards anyone who is different.

	19-07-2005 11:35									#38
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Pushing Ebonics is nothing more than a socio-economic group engaging in self-oppression through indirect means. It cannot reach the level of an actual language for a great many years and as such anyone speaking it as their only tongue is going to be at a great disadvantage. I think that's the point we're trying to gravitate towards. For the forseeable future, it serves no one except the politically correct touchy-feely, make-ourselves-feel-better people pushing this. And most importantly, it hurts the children being put through this tripe. They are the ones that are going to learn the moment they go to a good-paying employer and discover they can't communicate effectively.

I hate to admit, but I do support the idea of the United States mandating English as its official language. Individual states can and probably should support secondary languages based on demographics, but something needs to be the unifying language in all public schools, government bodies, businesses et al. and imo that is English. Until someone creates an affordable, real-time universal translator, some people in this world are just going to have to face the reality that not effectively speaking the dominant language of the land in which you live only serves to hurt you.

	19-07-2005 11:35									#39
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quote: Nobody is suppressing dialects.

Really?

Sounds to me like this is exactly what you're suggesting.

	19-07-2005 11:38									#40
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quote: They are the ones that are going to learn the moment they go to a good-paying employer and discover they can't communicate effectively.

You're right. I can't understand one word of that Negro talk.

Afterall, its just broken English.

	19-07-2005 11:40									#41
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The argument that Ebonic speakers can't communicate effectively is crap. Speakers of standard English can understand Ebonics speakers just fine, as well as the reverse.

The problem is that people don't respect speakers of Ebonics. Period.

	19-07-2005 11:46									#42
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quote: And what can possibly result from officially recognizing, and not denouncing, Ebonics in schools other than to give those who speak it a sense of accomplishment and pride in who they are? That can go a long way...

You're joking right? What, are they supposed to feel pride in the fact that, in spite of being rejected from a good-job because they speak in jibberish, they can speak in jibberish?

quote: I'm not sure if you guys realize it, but you are indirectly supporting a system which is systematically prejudice towards anyone who is different.

We're supporting the notion that they should be taught in public schools to speak in a way that'll give them the most opportunity to succeed in society at large than speak in a way that'll get them rejected from every good-paying job they apply to.

But at least they can feel pride in the fact that they can speak in jibberish, right?

	19-07-2005 11:51									#43
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Jibberish?

Care to retract that? If not, then I see where your argument is coming from.

	19-07-2005 11:52									#44
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Hate to break it to you Dros, but you just self pwned yourself.

	19-07-2005 11:53									#45
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Guys - Ebonics IS ENGLISH. The argument that teaching ebonics will create some kind of widescale communication breakdown is garbage.

	19-07-2005 11:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn The argument that Ebonic speakers can't communicate effectively is crap. Speakers of standard English can understand Ebonics speakers just fine, as well as the reverse.

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You're right. I can't understand one word of that Negro talk. Afterall, its just broken English.

Interesting juxtaposition of quotes there...

Yeah, they can communicate with other Ebonic-speakers just fine. It's when they speak to the other 99% of the English-speaking population that communication problems arise. Depending on how much exposure the Ebonic-speaker has had to normal English (like, for instance, IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS), their ability to communicate with non-Ebonic-speakers changes. If Indians on the other side of the planet can take crash-courses in how to speak (more often than not) passable British English then these kids can learn to effectively speak the USAmerican variant after years of public schooling.

quote: The problem is that people don't respect speakers of Ebonics. Period.

The problem is that the people pushing this want speakers of Ebonics to have that much more difficulty succeeding in life. Period.

	19-07-2005 11:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Really? Sounds to me like this is exactly what you're suggesting.

How so? There's no outlawing of the speaking of "ebonics" in discourse.

Are you suggesting that not mandating teaching in ebonics equals suppressing it? I'll give you a few moments to realize what a stupid thought that is.

	19-07-2005 11:58									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Guys - Ebonics IS ENGLISH. The argument that teaching ebonics will create some kind of widescale communication breakdown is garbage.

Who argued that?

I can understand ebonics, mostly. But that's not the point. When I'm in a business setting, I expect standard English to be spoken, as does everybody else in the business world. A kid who can speak English clearly--no matter what his race--will instantly be favored for a job over someone who goes into an interview spewing "ebonics." And that's because everyone expects the discourse in the professional world to be standard English. English is the international business language as well. Ebonics certainly isn't.

	19-07-2005 12:00									#49
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I think Jimmy is just being an amazingly good troll.

Mostly because I don't want to think he's being serious .

	19-07-2005 12:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Guys - Ebonics IS ENGLISH. The argument that teaching ebonics will create some kind of widescale communication breakdown is garbage.

English is a language, Ebonics is just a dialect of English.

The arguement is that no good-paying employer will hire people who can only manage to speak in Ebonics, furthering their low economic standing. We don't want to encourage the maintanence of that kind of status quo.

You do realize that in the world there's over 6,000 languages and God-knows-how-many dialects spoken by more than several hundred people (500 I believe is the benchmark), right? Should the US begin preparing to teaching in ALL of its share in those numbers to?

	19-07-2005 12:02									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I think Jimmy is just being an amazingly good troll. Mostly because I don't want to think he's being serious .

I really hope so, because otherwise, he's reached into the depths of unimaginable retardedness...

	19-07-2005 12:03									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Who argued that? I can understand ebonics, mostly. But that's not the point. When I'm in a business setting, I expect standard English to be spoken, as does everybody else in the business world. A kid who can speak English clearly--no matter what his race--will instantly be favored for a job over someone who goes into an interview spewing "ebonics." And that's because everyone expects the discourse in the professional world to be standard English. English is the international business language as well. Ebonics certainly isn't.

You oppressor . Next you'll be arguing that people should wear suits in a business setting! Mr. Fashion Genocide! Fascist!

	19-07-2005 12:05									#53
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quote: When I'm in a business setting, I expect standard English to be spoken, as does everybody else in the business world. A kid who can speak English clearly--no matter what his race--will instantly be favored for a job over someone who goes into an interview spewing "ebonics."

So you're saying this is a good thing? You prove my point quite nicely.

quote: Should the US begin preparing to teaching in ALL of its share in those numbers to?

Why not?

	19-07-2005 12:06									#54
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You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called?

Oh yeah. English.





Come on, guys. You may have the English down, but the history is lacking.

	19-07-2005 12:08									#55
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quote: So you're saying this is a good thing?

Why... yes. Am I going to expect you railing over the wearing of suits in the business setting next? After all, it is stifling creativity of American sub-cultures!

Fight the Powa!

	19-07-2005 12:10									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So you're saying this is a good thing? Why... yes. Am I going to expect you railing over the wearing of suits in the business setting next? After all, it is stifling creativity of American sub-cultures! Fight the Powa!

As long as its spoken clearly and politely, what should it matter.

Should we expect speakers of non-USA dialects to respectfully put on a Nebraska accent before business dealings in the US?

	19-07-2005 12:12									#57
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I'll leave you guys with two final words before retiring to my abode.

Lingustic Imperialism.

Night all!

	19-07-2005 12:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn As long as its spoken clearly and politely, what should it matter. Should we expect speakers of non-USA dialects to respectfully put on a Nebraska accent before business dealings in the US?

Answer the question instead of dodging it. What about suits in the business workplace? That's stifling the clothing of the sub-cultures within the US.

quote: Lingustic Imperialism.

You may be expecting the bleeding hearts to be like "Oh no", but I'm for it. We'll export American English across the globe and the mother****ers will like it!

	19-07-2005 12:14									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called? Oh yeah. English.

Fine. Let Ebonics rise to prominence the way English did: through the practice of people, without being aided and abetted by the State. Wake me when ebonics becomes the language of the majority, 'kay?

	19-07-2005 12:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn So you're saying this is a good thing? You prove my point quite nicely.

Absolutely. Having a standardized language for communication is always a good thing.

What good is accomplished by allowing kids to grow up not being able to speak English properly? While it might assuage your cultural guilt, it actually destroys their lives and makes it impossible for them to find good employment. Why should your little social experiment be allowed to ruin people's futures?