19-07-2005 12:17									#61
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And furthermore, no law firm, at least, will EVER hire someone who learned Ebonics instead of English, because the nuances of the language are important in arguing for one legal principle over another. You close Ebonics speakers to the law and you think that'll do them good?

	19-07-2005 12:22									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What good is accomplished by allowing kids to grow up not being able to speak English properly? While it might assuage your cultural guilt, it actually destroys their lives and makes it impossible for them to find good employment. Why should your little social experiment be allowed to ruin people's futures?

	19-07-2005 12:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Lets be real here, the big issue with Ebonics is that its spoken by black people. Blacks who speak perfect standard English are still penalized by society plenty as it is.

That's kind of the point of this thread, isn't it? And though blacks who speak perfect English still deal with racism, they don't deal with it as much.

My point is that so far no one has presented a compelling argument to allow Ebonics to be taught in class.

	19-07-2005 12:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called? Oh yeah. English. Come on, guys. You may have the English down, but the history is lacking.

Yeah, and it only took a few centuries for it to reach the level of a full-blown, widely-used, stand-alone language from its progenitor...

	19-07-2005 12:33									#65
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quote: I think Jimmy is just being an amazingly good troll. Mostly because I don't want to think he's being serious .

	19-07-2005 15:44									#66
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i think jimmy is just trying to prove that no matter how stupid an idea is, someone will back it.

	19-07-2005 15:57									#67
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called? Oh yeah. English.

And every sane man on earth agrees that the rise of English is dire

If the nobles had done their job properly, we wouldn't have to suffer under this atrocious language.

	19-07-2005 16:03									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And every sane man on earth agrees that the rise of English is dire If the nobles had done their job properly, we wouldn't have to suffer under this atrocious language.

You're just jealous that English replaced French as lingua franca in the Western World.

	19-07-2005 16:03									#69
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As somebody who lives in a country whose language he doesn't master, I fully agree with Boris et al. As I was looking for jobs, because of my language skills, pretty much every job in direct contact with the customer was barred to me. It's not good business if you don't understand what is told to you, or if the customer doesn't figure out what you mean.

I was stuck either with jobs that were related with the languages I speak better (French and English), or with menial jobs. And to me, it's perfectly normal.

If these students are so deeply in Ebonics that they have trouble studying in proper English, then the school is their last opportunity to be exposed to English. If their school speaks in Ebonics, they'll definitely lose touch with proper English. And they'll definitely lose touch with pretty much every job that requires to be fluent in the language (and in our economies based on the service sector, these jobs are many)

	19-07-2005 18:38									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You may be expecting the bleeding hearts to be like "Oh no", but I'm for it. We'll export American English across the globe and the mother****ers will like it!

British English shall prevail. They are spelled "colour", "theatre" and "manoeuvre", dammit!

	19-07-2005 18:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You oppressor . Next you'll be arguing that people should wear suits in a business setting! Mr. Fashion Genocide! Fascist!

Hmm.

I support English but oppose suits.

What does that make me?

	19-07-2005 18:44									#72
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Oh Kaak it is:
'This is just plain stupid.' and not some weird slang 'just. plain. STUPID.'

	19-07-2005 18:49									#73
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called? Oh yeah. English.

Yes, and English was a worthless waste of time for 700 years until Chaucer, and then largely pointless for another 200 years until Shakespeare.

OTOH, hmm.

	19-07-2005 18:51									#74
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Yeah, kaak. How dare you drop the copula? The thread title is an abomination.^-^

	19-07-2005 19:39									#75
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You know, this whole argument reminds me of that lesser known dialect of the poor, uneducated working class of the southern British Isles to come up around the 6th century. What was it called? Oh yeah. English. Yes, and English was a worthless waste of time for 700 years until Chaucer, and then largely pointless for another 200 years until Shakespeare. OTOH, hmm.

What a revealingly elitist post from you.

You're saying that a language is pointless and worthless only until someone comes along and makes it popular, regardless of the fact that millions of people used it to communicate? So until Negro Shakespeare comes along we should ignore AAVE?

Ok.

quote: What good is accomplished by allowing kids to grow up not being able to speak English properly?

I told you before, this argument doesn't work. Ebonics is English, its just not in standard form. In all other regards it should be perfectly intelligible to anyone whose first language is English. Nothing prevents a speaker of Ebonics from being well spoken, clear and concise.

"Proper" is not a qualititative term with regards to langage, its just a way classifying some forms as standard and others as non-standard. And what is standard is arbitrary, as are rules of grammar and vocabulary.

quote: That's kind of the point of this thread, isn't it? And though blacks who speak perfect English still deal with racism, they don't deal with it as much.

Good plan, instead of tackling the root of the problem, lets just make blacks as white as possible to bandaide other people's prejudice towards them. Lets send all gays into therapy too.

Basically guys, this is how it works. Ebonics speakers are perfectly well understood by speakers of standard English. So if communication isn't the issue, then whats the problem? The problem is simple, Ebonics speakers are black. If you think its any more complicated than this you're fooling yourself.

	19-07-2005 19:41									#76
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By the way, I find it ironic that I'm arguing largely with two gay men about the need to accept people for who they are.

Only in America...

	19-07-2005 19:42									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor As somebody who lives in a country whose language he doesn't master, I fully agree with Boris et al. As I was looking for jobs, because of my language skills, pretty much every job in direct contact with the customer was barred to me. It's not good business if you don't understand what is told to you, or if the customer doesn't figure out what you mean. I was stuck either with jobs that were related with the languages I speak better (French and English), or with menial jobs. And to me, it's perfectly normal. If these students are so deeply in Ebonics that they have trouble studying in proper English, then the school is their last opportunity to be exposed to English. If their school speaks in Ebonics, they'll definitely lose touch with proper English. And they'll definitely lose touch with pretty much every job that requires to be fluent in the language (and in our economies based on the service sector, these jobs are many)

Standard English and Ebonics versus French and German are apples and oranges.

	19-07-2005 19:44									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And furthermore, no law firm, at least, will EVER hire someone who learned Ebonics instead of English, because the nuances of the language are important in arguing for one legal principle over another. You close Ebonics speakers to the law and you think that'll do them good?

Anything that deters the production of more lawyers seems like a good idea to me...

	19-07-2005 20:07									#79
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Here's the un-Ebonics school class of 1880 photo:



Part of a proud legacy.

	19-07-2005 20:15									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Theben People can talk however they want; not my concern. However the public school system is supposed to be educating young people in order for them to get good jobs in addition to a well-rounding of knowledge. Why teach something that will HURT their chances of getting a job? Which it will.

Word

	19-07-2005 20:23									#81
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I don't think anyone actually read the linked article in the OP. It says that:

quote: "We are affirming and recognizing Ebonics through supplemental reading books (for students).'

No one ever suggested eliminating standard English from the curriculum, just an adding of Ebonics to give these kids some pride in who they are, and re-enforcing local culture - something everyone should have.

Haha, no one actually read the OP, did they? Now you all look like a bunch of racists.

	19-07-2005 20:26									#82
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But Kaak, et al. You guys are right.

Teaching black kids about their culture and language, and that its OK to be black, is just. plain. stupid.

	19-07-2005 20:40									#83
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Basically guys, this is how it works. Ebonics speakers are perfectly well understood by speakers of standard English. So if communication isn't the issue, then whats the problem? The problem is simple, Ebonics speakers are black. If you think its any more complicated than this you're fooling yourself.

No, you're fooling yourself. If I need someone to communicate with the clientele and I have a choice between someone who can be understood and someone who can't, who do you think I'll choose? I don't care if they're white, black, red, brown, orange, whatever. I'll look at how friendly they are, how motivated they seem, and whether or not they have the skills to perform the task. Now either the person cannot speak decent enough English to be understood, in which case I won't hire them (the exception would be Spanish as I can speak enough to get by, and there's usually someone around who can speak it well enough to communicate thru them), or they can speak English well enough to be understood, in which case there's no reason for special classes!

Keep in mind that this is for an entry level job. A little more than minimum wage.

To speak with an "urban" accent (for lack of a better term) will not bar someone from a good job. However, "fro shizzle ma drizzle" won't impress any HR dept I've known. The 1st can be understood and DOESN'T need it's own language class.

	19-07-2005 20:41									#84
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Most schools do have courses on black culture and history. To insist that a class on black english be taught as you are suggesting would be an insult if they really are speaking english.

The real solution would be to hire teachers that can communicate to the kids in their own dialect/sociolect/whatever. I'm sure southern schools hire teacher teachers with similar accents to their population, schools with large spanish speaking enrollment hire bi-lingual teachers, etc. It doesn't make any sense to inundate these students with any dialect by specifically teaching them that dialect.

If this is all about the culture and history then don't disguise it by claiming Ebonics is necessary for a segment of the populace.

	19-07-2005 20:46									#85
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How can Ebonics be both perfectly understandable and acceptable to any English speaker and yet be so different that it requires special classes and/or reading material?

	19-07-2005 20:52									#86
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Here's the un-Ebonics school class of 1880 photo:

Given the fact that Black English/ebonics apparently has it's roots in the parts of Britian from which white Southerners (the people who likely owned the group in your picture) came from I fail to see how it is somehow protective of Black identity to have it tought in any capacity in the school system.

	20-07-2005 00:25									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki How can Ebonics be both perfectly understandable and acceptable to any English speaker and yet be so different that it requires special classes and/or reading material?

This was going to be my next point. Obviously it is different enough from standard English that it needs special classes. Furthermore, why don't you ask someone from deep Appalachia (with that accent) would find it easy to get service jobs in cosmopolitan cities. I doubt it.

I mean has Jimmy ever dialed a help line? You want someone who speaks clearly because there may be phrases or jargon that you just don't understand, and need in depth explinations of.

	20-07-2005 00:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So you're saying this is a good thing? Why... yes. Am I going to expect you railing over the wearing of suits in the business setting next? After all, it is stifling creativity of American sub-cultures! Fight the Powa!

I'll sign onto that. T-shirts and shorts only.

Especially in the summer. I don't know how people survive in suits in the summer. Too fricken hot. When we get an office no one is gonna be expected to wear a suit. Or even a tie.

Unless we are meeting someone important or something. But otherwise, come as you are.

	20-07-2005 00:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I don't know how people survive in suits in the summer. Too fricken hot. When we get an office no one is gonna be expected to wear a suit. Or even a tie.

The tie is the biggie - traps the heat in.

quote: Unless we are meeting someone important or something. But otherwise, come as you are.

This is the rule in our office. Shorts and T-shirt today, suit tomorrow.

	20-07-2005 00:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn So you're saying this is a good thing? You prove my point quite nicely

Of course we should all spend money teaching people how to learn a 'second language' to communicate with these ebonics-speakers. Of course we should cater to them. Of course we should let their preferences dictate American life.

Or instead we could not waste our tax dollars and expect the bare minimum- that everyone in the nation can be expected to understand each other.