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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
No one can argue that Africa has it's own culture.
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They can argue, but they'd be wrong.
Poor old David Hume:
(On African societies)
"No ingenious manufacture amongst them, no arts, no sciences."
and Thomas Jefferson:
" Misery is often the parent of the most affecting touches in poetry. Among the blacks is the misery enough, God knows, but no poetry. Love is the peculiar oestrum of the poet. Their love is ardent, but it kindles the senses only, not the imagination. Religion, indeed, has a Phyllis Wheatley, but it could not produce a poet. The compositions published under name are below the dignity of criticism. "
Oh how things change:
quote:
Across the continent, artifacts are looted from museums, from universities and straight from the ground. Most of the objects-ancient terracotta and stone figures, brass and bronze sculptures, wooden grave markers, masks and doors-end up in the U.S. and Europe, where collectors prize such items as the 16th century Benin bronze castings whose technical finesse rivals works produced by Europeans of the same era. Among the most sought-after items are figurines from Kawu, with their distinctive triangular eyes and abstracted features, remnants of the Nok culture that flourished in central Nigeria from 500 B.C. to A.D. 200. |
http://www.time.com/time/pacific/ma...010806/art.html
There is no record of David Hume ever having visited Africa, as far as I can tell.
 Attachment: ifeterracottahead.jpg
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vStauffenberg
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just some extra info from bbc.co.uk:
"MALI DISCOVERS AMERICA?
'So Abubakar equipped 200 ships filled with men and the same number equipped with gold, water, and provisions, enough to last them for years…they departed and a long time passed before anyone came back. Then one ship returned and we asked the captain what news they brought.
He said, 'Yes, Oh Sultan, we travelled for a long time until there appeared in the open sea a river with a powerful current…the other ships went on ahead, but when they reached that place, they did not return and no more was seen of them…As for me, I went about at once and did not enter the river.'
The Sultan got ready 2,000 ships, 1,000 for himself and the men whom he took with him, and 1,000 for water and provisions. He left me to deputise for him and embarked on the Atlantic Ocean with his men. That was the last we saw of him and all those who were with him.
And so, I became king in my own right.'
Mansa Musa, talking to Syrian scholar Al-Umari."
(from http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/a...4chapter3.shtml)
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Yarco_TW
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My Answer: Yes, Mali is an excellent choice to be in the game.
This is the best approximation of my answer. My answer is that any civilization, which at certain point in time created a decent state, a wonder, a world known leader or discovery should be in the game.
The game should be such, that only some civs should appear at 4000 BC. Others should appear later, and miss the fun of building Pyramids (e.g. Germans). Some should be generated by secession (e.g. Americans or Barzillians). Some should be eliminated by war. Some should become eliminated by war and re-create theirselves by uprising. Some should be culturally assimilated.
Such views make me
1) To defend Mali as civilisation (otherwise what will we have in Africa?) and 2) To defend military rebellion and secession and 3) To defend some civs appearing after 4000 BC.
That should be fun.
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Yarco_TW
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Look, Civs are picked to be representative of the world's cultures. No one can argue that Africa has it's own culture. Mali stands as a good representative for Africans, as it was a powerful, wealthy state that enjoyed great respect from its contemporaries. I see little difference between Mali and other Civs that have been included in the past, [...] |
This is 100% true. Mali has its own culture, and the fact that the civ is currently just a poor country is not a reason for removing it. Babylonians, Greeks, Celts, Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, Zulu, Carthaginians, Hittites do not exist as great, or do not exist at all by now.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[...] other Civs that have been included in the past, such as the Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, etc. [...] |
Honestly, I do not see any reason for Iroquois being in Civ 3. Issue 1 - they did not have a state (were tribal). Incas, Mali, even Zulu did have a state. Issue 2 - they did not have significant achievements on their own. Incas had road system, terrasing, and Sacsawayman, which are wonders (although not in Civ3). But what about Iroquois? Issue 4 - their population was 20 000. Incas had 4 million, Mali also had more than 20 000. In addition to that Iroquois waged beaver wars, and eliminated neighbour Indians. Issue 5 - historically inacurate UU for Iroquois (they never had mounted soldiers).
Unfortunately, Sioux and Iroquois should be barbarians in this game (no offense to Amerindians, but if Iroquois are in, then Ukrainians should be in, as well as Crimea Tatars).
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And I certainly think it's much more suitable than the Zulus. |
Suitability should be supported by
1) Presence of state. Mali existed for longer period, so +1 to Mali.
2) Importance of state. Mali was more important than Zulu for longer period. +1 to Mali
3) Presence of really unique UU. I do not know good one for Mali. +2 for Zulu with their Impi.
4) Presence of wonders. Bantu of South Africa created Zimbabwe. Not Zulu wonder, but close to the point. No major wonder for Mali. +1 to Zulu.
5) major power in respective area. +0, as both were important in their areas. If you include Mali, please do not forget Samori as a leader.
6) Leaders available +0, both had a bunch of decent leaders.
7) Discoveries made +0, none made important discoveries.
Therefore, Zulu should also be in.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[...] Mali stands as a good representative for Africans [...] |
I have nothing against seeing Aksum (Ethiopia), Zulu, Yoruba (Nigeria), and Mali all representing African nations.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by AeonOfTime
I admire your perseverance! |
It's easy when you have a love for African art and history. The game is called 'Civilization' after all, not 'my favourite civilizations' or 'mainly Western civilizations'.
That being the case I see no reason not to include any culture or state in Africa that could be defined as a civilization- from the ancient kingdom of Ghana, or Axumite Ethiopia, the Saadian sultanate in Morocco, the Fatimids in Egypt, to the Karanga or Mwanamutapa Empire (where modern day Zimbabwe is today).
The savannah states declined partly because of direct Western trade contacts with the West African states such as Benin and Oyo- and also of course thanks to al Mansour and his use of firearms against the feudal levies of Songhai, Gao and Djenne.
Visitors to Benin were very impressed:
" The Kingdom of Beny is about eighty leagues long and forty wide; it is usually at war with its neighbours and takes many captives, whom we buy at twelve or fifteen brass bracelets each, or for copper braceletes which they prize more."
Duarte Pacheco Pereira from his work: 'Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis', written 1505-1508
G. B. Ramusio's 'Navigazioni e Viaggi', published 1550:
" The kings are worshipped by their subjects, who believe that they come from heaven, and speak of them always with great reverence, at a distance and on bended knees. Great ceremony surrounds them and many of these kings never allow themselves to be seen eating, so as not to destroy the belief of their subjects that they can live without food.'
A description of the royal palace in Benin (destroyed by fire in 1897):
"The king's court is square, and stands at the right hand side when entering the town by the gate of Gotton (Ughoton), and is certainly as large as teh town of Haarlem, and entirely surrounded by a special wall, like that which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses, and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful andlong square galleries, about a slarge as the Exchange at Amsterdam, but one larger than another, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom covered with cast copper, on which are engraved the picture sof their war exploits and battles, and are kept very clean.
Most palaces and houses of the king are covered with palm leaves instead of square pieces of wood, and every roof is deciorated with a small turret ending in a point, on which birds are standing, birds cast in copper with outspread wings, cleverly made after living models."
Olfert Dapper, Description de l'Afrique, contenant les noms, la situation & les confins de toutes ses parties (Amsterdam: Wolfgang, Waesberge, Boom & van Someren, 1686
and finally from David van Nyandael:
" As one comes about another half mile from the mouth, then one sees islands which are a half hour's distance from one another. On one of these the Portuguese have built a lodge and a church, at a town called Warri, which is independent and also has a free king who is not under the king of Great Benin, but is his neighbour and ally, although the king of Benin has greater honor than him or anyone else. He is the greatest king in the world, at least in the Guinea world. [??] His territory is known to extend 100 miles outside. When there is nothing outside, then [??] with much to tell. [mits hy sig inbeeld, de grooste koning der wereld te syn, ten minsten van de Guinese wereld, welke ontrent honderd mylen buiten syn land aen hem is bekend; want het geen daer buiten is, daer van fal hy, door onkunde, miet veel na vertellen.] "
01 09 1702
http://www.diafrica.org/nigeriaop/kenny/DH07E.htm
Attachment: beninbronzeplaque.jpg
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Yarco_TW
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
This thread is turning out to be just as bad as my old thread.
Molly Bloom, you ought to cool down and stop being so antagonistic!
ArchdukeNewell, you also should chill out and stop being so reactionary!
This pointless arguing is just filling up space where people could actually make useful and reasonable comments. |
While I agree to start peace negotiations, I still need a proof of Mali being more Barbarian than Polynesians, Iroquois and Celts.
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26-07-2005 05:12
There's a quota?
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