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Guynemer
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Pwnage of that scale deserves praise.
I agree partly with you, Heresson. I'd like to see the Ethiopians included as well; however, if we can have only one sub-Saharian civ, the Malinese are just as deserving.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:37
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I don't think I've been pawned here; it's Molly who claimed that Ethiopia lost a war against Eritrea, why in fact it's won it. He wasn't intelligent or good-willed enough to understand which war I've ment, while it was pretty obvious... Also to him, as when I explained it, He quickly changed the topic and didn't question it.
With all its nice art, Mali didn't make any (if You know about any, I'm willing to learn) impact on world history.
Case is different with Ethiopia. It played an important role in Byzantine-Persian relations, as located on maritime route from Byzantine empire to India, by which Byzantium wanted to by-pass Sasanids. Its interventions in Yemen, which brought Himyarites to an end, and pushed Persian influence away, that it gave shelter to young Muslim community and denied help to Quraysh against them (as long as these stories are true) - it allowed Islam to start and grow, and that is a major historical event.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
With all its nice art, Mali didn't make any (if You know about any, I'm willing to learn) impact on world history.
Case is different with Ethiopia.
[snip]
it allowed Islam to start and grow, and that is a major historical event. |
Except for that last event (I have not enough knowledge of Ethiopia to say whether it's true or not), all you said were "regional" achievements between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East, and not planetary achievements.
They are important achievements nonetheless, and Ethiopia is definitely a Civ worthy to be in the game as well, don't get me wrong. But in the past ages, when empires had only a "regional" reach (that is, before the European Age of Discovery), an impact on world history is rare, and due to chance (i.e. how well the successor Civs have fared once the Age of Discovery begun).
The Ghana/Mali/Songhay have completely changed their area, which is western subsaharian Africa. They introduced urbanism, organized religion, literacy (which was mostly religious in nature) and organized government. It was a radical change for the traditions in the area.
The "regional" impact of these empires was a cultural shift of great importance, similar in nature to the cultural shift that happened in the wake of the Roman conquest (christianization, alphabetization, organized government etc).
The Mali are mostly known in the West for their trade in Gold, for it may be their only impact on Europe (if we were Arabic-centred people, we would also be aware of the Malian centres of religious learning). But their main achievement was what they did to western Subsaharian Africa, which is something we westerners know too faintly to really care about.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:37
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You've made a mistake and don't want to accept it. Nothing new.
If You want to prove me wrong in Ethiopia/Eritrea case, please comment on my explenations why You're wrong, not on me and not on my other posts.
Last edited by Heresson on 15-08-2005 at 20:33
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Yarco_TW
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This thread is endless.
I do want to list all civs in the world and start rating them.
I still cannot agree that a civ which is not powerful now is useless.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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Instead of arguing about whether Mali is worthy, lets argue about whether Mali is worthy ENOUGH to get into civ 4...Here's a list of civs from civ 3, 18 of them in all...look at the list, and now, lets argue about which of them don't deserve a slot, because some other civ is better...
1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Egypt
4. Persia
5. Babylon
6. Arabia
7. England
8. France
9. Spain
10. Russia
11. China
12. Japan
13. India
14. Germany
15. Mongols
16. Ethiopia
17. America
18. Inca
I definitely think that Rome and Greece deserve spots...Egypt and Persia, while not exactly world powers today, still are worthy...Egypt has produced some rather astounding works of construction, and Persia has embraced much of the mid-easts culture...
Babylon I think should be in as well, as it kind of represents all the civs in Mesopotamia (particularly Sumeria) which have much contribution to the idea of writing and to mathematics (again, Sumeria)...
Arabian culture is widespread, especially in its religion, Islam...it accounts for a wide variety of civs that have either nutured it or have come from it...
England, France, and Spain have influenced culture around the globe...the languages and religions are used by large populations, and while small nations in size, they are not small in stature...
Russian culture isn't as vast as those of its European counterparts, but all the same, it has played vital roles in many industrial and modern wars, and has accomplished a great feat simply by managing its, rather large self...
China and India have been centers of power, culture, science, and technology for long periods of time...both have also seen their fair share of warfare...
Japan, while small, has preserved its culture from the Mongols, China, and from Europeans and Americans...quite an amazing feat...even more impressive was the rapid economical and technological growth it went through, and in the process, has still preserved its ancient culture, even though it is one of the most modern nations...
Mongols have made their mark through warfare, and have effected a good chunk of the globe through their short-lived, but large empire...
Ethiopia I would put in before any other African civ...while it is small and poor now, so is Mali, and Ethiopia has had much greater contributions to culture and religion, to both Christianity and Islam...on the other hand, I can't say that for Mali...I'm glad Heresson mentioned Ethiopia, I'm surprised I didn't think of it...
America definitely deserves a spot, as it has great political and cultural influence, even though it has only be around a mere 200 years...
I think the Inca are the appropriate native American civ, as they had the largest empire, and actually concentrated on science and more culture things, unlike the Aztecs and north American Indian tribes...
Edit [as mentioned, I forgot 14, which was indeed supposed to be germany, so thank you]
These are my 18...if you can argue that another civ should replace one of these, go ahead...however, DO NOT simply sit there and say "oh, that civ sucks, it shouldn't be in the game" unless you can reasonably argue that another civ is superior...
Last edited by Commy on 16-08-2005 at 21:00
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AeonOfTime
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Overclocking DOSBox
Nov 2000
time: 06:37
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Flaming and headbashing aside, back on track: I have done some research of my own on Mali. Here a few quotes that I found interesting:
From BBC World Service: The story of Africa:
quote:
In the 13th century Mali rose under the leadership of the Malinke Sundiata to become renowned throughout the Arab world for its wealth and learning. |
The website also has a very interesting page dedicated to the Mali empire.
From The Kingdom of Mali:
quote:
This disciplined and influential Empire thrived in the 13th and 14th centuries but began its downfall in the 15th (Martin, 82). After the passing of Musa, Mali never again had a leader that was powerful or influential enough to hold it together. When the Mali Kingdom collapsed, the Songhay empire in West Sudan took its place (Jackson, 212). *The wealth and power that Mali possessed were never again fully displayed by an African Empire.* |
From A History of ancient Mali:
quote:
Ancient Mali expanded down the Niger River capturing several cites and sizing control of the river itself. The cities that Mali ruled over included Timbuktu, Dejenne, and Kawkaw (modern-day Goa). The capture of these cities and the Niger River allowed Mali to control tarns-Saharan trade routs along with trade to North Africa. The control of trade and large cavalry allowed Mali to build an impressive feudal empire [...]. In addition to an impressive government and economy, Mali boasted a thriving culture that included a mix of traditional African customs and Islamic practices. Eventually, Songhai, a province of Mali would rise to become the next great power in western Africa. There is no question, however, that Mali was one of greatest African civilizations to exist. |
From Geographia, an introduction to Mali:
quote:
Mali reached its pinnacle of power and wealth during the 14th century, extending over almost all of West Africa and controlling virtually all of the rich trans-Saharan gold trade. It was during this period that Mali's great cities, Timbuktu and Djenne, became fabled centers of wealth, learning, and culture. |
From Kingdoms of the Medieval Sudan:
quote:
For the history of Africa, an understanding of medieval Mali is essential. Though the topic of "state formation" has been the subject of some controversy in African studies, it is undeniable that Mali became one of the huge states of pre-modern Africa, with a complex governmental structure headed by the king and managed by officials, sub-kings, and bureaucrats. Moreover, Mali was one of the first states south of the Sahara to see the new religion of Islam firmly take hold. |
I have visited and read about 20 websites on the subject, and the consensus for me is that Mali definitely deserves a place in Civ. It was a bigger empire that I even thought by reading what molly and the others contributed in this thread... In a chronology of African civilizations, Mali always stands out somewhat, and even the great Songhay empire that followed after Mali did not quite reach the peak of Mali's influence.
However, that only accounts for ancient african civilizations - I don't know about more recent ones, but that's not really the point of this thread either...
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13-08-2005 19:19
@ molly, that's one of the better ass-handings I've seen.
Attachment: 
Made me appreciate the choice of Mali more than ever.
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