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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
just forget it, I couldn't be arsed leading you through the historiography of nazism to which Agathon was referring - read up yourself. |
Yes, because clearly I know much less about it then either he or you do.
Which one of the three of us has provided support for their points ?
quote:
Nazis tended to be disciplined and cold tempered people... |
Convinced that his own General Staff was weak and indecisive, if not openly treacherous, Hitler became more prone to outbursts of blind, hysterical fury towards his generals, when he did not retreat into bouts of misanthropic brooding. His health, too, deteriorated under the impact of the drugs prescribed by his quack physician, Dr. Theodor Morell.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ust/hitler.html
quote:
The American journalist William Shirer, sitting in the balcony directly above the German Chancellor, thought Hitler "in the worst state of excitement I’ve ever seen him in" (Kershaw, 2000). But Hitler’s speech was "a psychological masterpiece" according to Goebbels. |
http://stevenlehrer.com/sportpalast.htm
quote:
Americans usually heard Hitler through speech excerpts, which offered literal translations, but did little to convey the drama and hysteria unfolding in Germany. This broadcast, from the Nuremberg Rally of September 12, 1938, was among the first to present Nazi Germany in full frenzy. |
http://www.umkc.edu/lib/spec-col/ww2/WarNews/voices.htm
quote:
The notorious Nuremberg rallies were not political rallies of the kind that occur in the West today but cunningly stage-managed theatre of the kind, for example, that formed an integral component of Greek religious festivals. Everything - the colours of the uniforms and flags, the placement of the spectators, the nocturnal hour, the use of spotlights and floodlights, the sense of timing - was precisely calculated. The film-clips depict people intoxicating themselves, chanting themselves into a state of rapture and ecstasy using the mantra 'Sieg Heil!' and doting on the Führer as if he were a deity. The faces of the crowd are stamped with a mindless beatitude… It is not a question of persuasive rhetoric. In fact, Hitler's rhetoric is quite unpersuasive. More often than not, it is banal, childish, repetitious, devoid of substance. But his delivery has a venomous energy, a rhythmic pulse to it as hypnotic as a drumbeat; and this, combined with the contagion of mass emotion, with the pressure of thousands of people packed together in a confined area… produces a mass hysteria… What one witnesses at Hitler's rallies is an 'alteration of consciousness' such as psychologists generally associate with a mystical experience.
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Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln
The Messianic Legacy, Corgi Books, London, 1991
Are 'blind hysterical fury' 'frenzy' and 'worst state of excitement' alternatives to 'cold tempered' and 'disciplined' ?
I think not.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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1. Lets be clear - saying the police were not wrong, does NOT mean the Brazilian fellow WAS wrong, or deserved death. Its possible that his actions were excusable, and understandable, but that, given the circumstances, the police had to act as they did.
2. We dont know all the details. Thats why this needs to be investigated - and that investigation has been promised from the beginning, IIRC.
3. It IS a difficult situation for the police, who MUST make instant decisions, with little information, and could cause loss of innocent life EITHER way.
4. Shooting to kill has been adopted in western democracies in numerous instances, I think, in particular situations of grave risk. Someone will have to google it.
5. The Nazis did not originate through a slippery slope from harsh police measures (just as Communism has no where resulted from a slippery slope from the welfare state, pace Hayek) They originated through a more or less open power grab, there approaches and motives out in the open.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:37
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i'm outraged that lotm has ruined this thread with a good post!
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Lets be clear - saying the police were not wrong, does NOT mean the Brazilian fellow WAS wrong, or deserved death. Its possible that his actions were excusable, and understandable, but that, given the circumstances, the police had to act as they did.
2. We dont know all the details. Thats why this needs to be investigated - and that investigation has been promised from the beginning, IIRC.
3. It IS a difficult situation for the police, who MUST make instant decisions, with little information, and could cause loss of innocent life EITHER way.
4. Shooting to kill has been adopted in western democracies in numerous instances, I think, in particular situations of grave risk. Someone will have to google it.
5. The Nazis did not originate through a slippery slope from harsh police measures (just as Communism has no where resulted from a slippery slope from the welfare state, pace Hayek) They originated through a more or less open power grab, there approaches and motives out in the open. |
We know enough details such as they followed a suspect from the communal entrance of a block of flats - why did they not have the suspect flat itself under surveillance to make sure they got the right man!!?
Just because he was dark skinned and wearing a coat (on a day that was cool weather for a Brazilian), they assumed he was their suspect! This seems like the most elementary of errors to me!
Then they actually let a suspected suicide bomber board a bus - what if that bus was going to be his target!!? Another mistake!
Then they allowed him to escape at the entrance of the tube into it! Another mistake!
Then when they did corner him they blew him away with not one or two shots to the head but 8!
The police were clearly out of control of the situation - they ****ed it up from start to finish and there are enough reports to back this up already!
No one will know for sure why he ran, as apparently his visa was OK - that was his fatal mistake!
However it was the tactical errors of the police that allowed him to get into a situation where they felt that they had no option but to use lethal force - in case he actually was a suicide bomber!
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by MOBIUS
"We know enough details such as they followed a suspect from the communal entrance of a block of flats - why did they not have the suspect flat itself under surveillance to make sure they got the right man!!?"
Maybe there was no way to discretely surveil the flat? We dont know that.
"Just because he was dark skinned and wearing a coat (on a day that was cool weather for a Brazilian), they assumed he was their suspect! This seems like the most elementary of errors to me!"
Do we know they assumed he was THE suspect? Did they pull all surveillance off the building when he left? Or did they just assume that because he left the building, may have had some resemblence to whom they were looking for, and was wearing a coat on a warm day, (cool for a Brazilian - but they DIDNT know, or have any reason to think, he was Brazilian - you fault the police for not knowing things they couldnt know, but dont fault the Brazilian for, say, not knowing that wearing a coat in warm weather is a mark of a suicide bomber) he was someone they should follow?
"Then they actually let a suspected suicide bomber board a bus - what if that bus was going to be his target!!? Another mistake!"
Apparently they were following him to see where he would go, to get info - its not clear how fast he got on the bus, or if there was a chance to stop him as he got on.
"Then they allowed him to escape at the entrance of the tube into it! Another mistake!"
They called on him to stop - would you have had them shoot first, and not call on him to stop? After calling on him to stop, would you have had them shoot him from a distance, in the middle of a crowd?
"Then when they did corner him they blew him away with not one or two shots to the head but 8!"
Why they shot so many times will be investigated. My assumption is that it happened fast, and they didnt know in the moment which shots had hit, or if he was still a threat. Recall that suicide bombers sometimes manage to explode even after being hit.
"The police were clearly out of control of the situation - they ****ed it up from start to finish and there are enough reports to back this up already!"
On the contrary, much of your criticism is that they were TOO in control - they refrained from shooting him before he got on the bus, before he ran into the tube etc. While I see questions that need to be clarified, i see no evidence at this point that the police were "out of control"
"No one will know for sure why he ran, as apparently his visa was OK - that was his fatal mistake!"
What needs to be investigated is why the police acted as they did, not why the Brazilian acted as he did.
"However it was the tactical errors of the police that allowed him to get into a situation where they felt that they had no option but to use lethal force - in case he actually was a suicide bomber!"
You are correct that there are three possible outcomes 1. The police did nothing wrong 2. The police commited an act of brutality 3. The police made tactical errors, but commited no act of brutality
at this point all three remain possibilities.
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Bereta_Eder
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Safety can come from not screwing ritually other countries, be that for oil or whatever else.
There would again be terrorism if there wasn't the screwing. There's no doubt about that. But it would be contained and only a miniscule of what it is today. Much harder to recruit for it and with solid backing from all democratic governments to fight it (after of course everyone actually helped for them to be democratic and not hinder them or worse destroy them).
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Bereta_Eder
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Yes. He fell on the knife 20 times.
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26-07-2005 16:29
Attachment: 
), allowed him to board a bus (a known suicide target
but don't you worry about the people who actually believe the stuff you write :/
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