26-07-2005 23:17									#1
	"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents" part II Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Has anyone decided why the man chose to run? Given the other facts that seems to be what caused his tragic end.

	26-07-2005 23:19									#2
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Has anyone decided why the man chose to run?

That's easy. To give Apolytoner's something else to argue about.

	26-07-2005 23:21									#3
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His visa expired.

	26-07-2005 23:22									#4
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Really?

	26-07-2005 23:23									#5
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Last I heard his visa expired and he was likely concerned about being deported.

	27-07-2005 00:26									#6
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That was reported in our paper this morning. But when you think about it, the guy was supposedly working to buy a ranch in the old country, even if he runs, the police will find out where he works or lives and unless he gives those things up, the police will eventually get him. But that's too logical and not always how people respond in pressure situations. But it does make you wonder a touch.

	27-07-2005 01:11									#7
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His visa hadn't expired. And it wouldn't matter anyway because anybody could have run. They try to find reasons why he run. Visa being expired was one, then growing inm the slums of Brazil
He run because he was human. Anyone not fitting that description is quite safe. Ok, asher ?

	27-07-2005 01:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 His visa hadn't expired. And it wouldn't matter anyway because anybody could have run. They try to find reasons why he run. Visa being expired was one, then growing inm the slums of Brazil He run because he was human. Anyone not fitting that description is quite safe. Ok, asher ?

He must've been pretty f*cking stupid to run.

I agree you may've run, but I don't think most humans would've run.

	27-07-2005 01:30									#9
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_eye witness acount said the police just said: get out get down. that's it.

even if that's not it and they did say police (which the people who were in front never said) , it doesn't matter! he could have run anyway.

What I find most disrturbing, making me want to rip my clothes apart like a jewish leader did when Jesus told him he's the son of God, is your incredible will to paint a blame on the dead.
That's exactly what the police is trying to do, unsuccesfullly, but they have their reasons. I don't see what your reasons might be. But I shouldn't pay any attention to that. Hopefully you're at the middle of nowhere and never going to bother anyone with your incredible lack of not only sensitivity but also common sense.

PS I don't know what you called your mental disease before but it must really be ****ed up.

	27-07-2005 01:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 _eye witness acount said the police just said: get out get down. that's it. even if that's not it and they did say police (which the people who were in front never said) , it doesn't matter! he could have run anyway.

They said "STOP! ARMED POLICE!" which caused him to run, this was before he jumped the turnstiles into the station.

They were shouting "get out, get down" to the other people...the guy clearly didn't think they were talking to him, as he kept running TOWARDS the train...not exactly getting out or getting down.

You seem to have this scenario in your head where the police in plain clothes randomly pulled guns and chased after a guy...

The guy was running from people who identified themselves as armed police, towards a train, a day after trains were bombed. You seem to want to ignore that...

quote: What I find most disrturbing, making me want to rip my clothes apart like a jewish leader did when Jesus told him he's the son of God, is your incredible will to paint a blame on the dead.

The police took the action they should've given what they knew and the actions of the man.

Dead people do stupid things sometimes, such as ignoring police warnings and running for a train not even a day after they were bombed for the 2nd time in a week.

What I find disturbing is you think dead people can do no wrong, and are immune to blame...

	27-07-2005 01:41									#11
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Look, the police said one thing and then comes and says another. All that charade about why he would have run is part of that and it is one thing that keeps changing over and over again.
When there are no good gossip on morning TV I turn to CNN. That's where I listened to the eye witness acount not an hour later than what has happened and long before the damage control units started spinning things.

What he said was quite clear. And I've already described it. No mention of police anywhere.
It was an amazing FUBAR on their part.
But, I repeat, even if they did say police, which noone ever heard of, him running is no big deal. You could have done it, no slower than I can say Microsoft. And not only you but anybody.
Plus the police saying it was a tragedy and saying we will not alter anything, it's like saying we killed an innocent man and we're going to do it again. The antithesis is so eye watering I don't know what else could have been.

	27-07-2005 01:52									#12
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The police told him to stop. That part is only being disputed by you, and it also doesn't make sense for them NOT to say it.

He ran when they said stop. He ran to a train after they said stop. He ran to a train after they said stop, a day after trains were bombed.

You'd have to be stupid to not realize the risk that entails.

	27-07-2005 02:01									#13
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da canadian compute guy, he speaks da truth.

	27-07-2005 02:04									#14
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The police never said anything identyfying them as such according to first eye witness reports.


Here
http://www.mre.gov.br/

ask them. Be sure you identify yourself from somewhere worth replying to or they might not respond to you.

	27-07-2005 02:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The police told him to stop. That part is only being disputed by you, and it also doesn't make sense for them NOT to say it. He ran when they said stop. He ran to a train after they said stop. He ran to a train after they said stop, a day after trains were bombed. You'd have to be stupid to not realize the risk that entails.

That sums it up. Everbody has to be aware that running from police toward a train means immediate consequences. If they didn't know, they know now.

My thing is that the man's reaction was exactly what I would think an actual suicide bomber would do. If you are caught, you would run for the nearest place where you could inflict the most casualties

	27-07-2005 02:37									#16
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I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals.

It call comes back to the fact that he was a dumbass, and escalated the situation for no reason.

	27-07-2005 03:51									#17
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When a cop tries to pull you over for speeding, do you run?

If you're mugged on the street, do you run?

The most common reaction would be to freeze in terror, not run.

	27-07-2005 03:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals.

Sure. When our lives are not threatened.

	27-07-2005 05:48									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals. It call comes back to the fact that he was a dumbass, and escalated the situation for no reason.

My point was that this happens all the time and one of the effects is that it impairs logic and reason and leads to impulsive behaviour. In this case, and the case of the hot pursuit soccer moms (that sounds like Asher's other thread) it's likely that people panic and run contrary to reason, because they are no longer in effect rational creatures. What rational person would shite their pants? But that happens too.

That's why I think that shooting because people run is not a sufficient justification. The police will say this themselves too, with regard to car chases. I don't see why it's any different here.

	27-07-2005 05:52									#20
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quote: I don't see why it's any different here.

The risk tradeoff is completely different when you're dealing with someone you have reason to believe will kill dozens of people, and someone you believe stole some money or whatever...

	27-07-2005 06:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Asher When a cop tries to pull you over for speeding, do you run? If you're mugged on the street, do you run? The most common reaction would be to freeze in terror, not run.

Says you. Someone else could have the opposite reaction.

Guys. This poor man was jumped, pinned down, then shot in the head. Over five times.

quote: Witnesses said Mr. Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him dead.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...ilian+shot+head

Repeat: He was pinned down, then shot several times. In the head. As in, at point blank range. More than once. Thats not law enforcement, thats murder.

How is this act, in any way, defensible?

	27-07-2005 06:13									#22
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That's the first time I've heard he was pinned down, and miraculously there is no primary source for it...

Given the tone of the article, and the place it was written, I'm not surprised they would make an assertion without any backing.

There would be no reason to shoot him if they had actually pinned him reliably. From all of the witness reports I've read, he half-tripped and was half-pushed to the ground, at which point he was shot in the head and shoulder.

If he was pinned down when they started shooting I very much doubt they'd hit his shoulder and not his head...

Maybe the definition of "pinned" means something different overseas or in Brazil. Here it means they would not be able to move at all, hands or any other limb.

From the witness descriptions, he was not pinned. A blanket article written in Brazil without a primary source for saying he was pinned is pretty suspect.

	27-07-2005 06:19									#23
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so you're saying that if he was pinned down and then shot repeatedly ten it'd be wrong of the police, Asher? Just so we're clear...

	27-07-2005 06:20									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie so you're saying that if he was pinned down and then shot repeatedly ten it'd be wrong of the police, Asher? Just so we're clear...

If he was pinned to the point of being unable to move his arms and legs, then I believe it would've been wrong to shoot him.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case. I just did an exhaustive search of Google News and I can't find a single quote from a witness saying he was pinned. Strangely they all come from Brazillian-sourced articles with a blanket statement like "he was pinned to the ground and brutally shot dead 8 times"

The closest I could find was a quote from a witness saying "while he was being pinned" he was shot, which is very, very different from saying he was pinned.

	27-07-2005 07:55									#25
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The point is in the UK if you ran you would have no reasonable expectation of being shot because the new policy was not announced. It would be the same in Australia or New Zealand.

North America is a very different story. I don't know about Canada but in the USA with its trigger happy gun culture and raging authoritarianism, I think being shot for running would be a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't.

	27-07-2005 09:01									#26
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Asher, I got that from the Globe and Mail, and the article came from AP.

I also read this in the hard copy Globe and Mail as well.

	27-07-2005 09:10									#27
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quote: The many decisions which led anti-terrorism units to pursue the Brazilian electrician on to a train, then pin him down and fire five bullets into his head, will be painstakingly picked apart by at least two inquiries.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/editoria...l?oneclick=true

quote: Menezes was killed in a London Underground station as the police investigated a wave of botched bombings the day before and the deadly transit bombings of July 7. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into an Underground car, pinned him to the floor and shot him.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/26/news/brazil.php

quote: The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_2888390

quote: Witnesses said Mr Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head.

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/s...6,92149,00.html

Not one Brazilian source, all quoted from witnesses.

Edit: And all "pinned" in the past tense, not the past progressive "being pinned".

	27-07-2005 09:21									#28
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That's funny, I don't see any witness quotes in there.

And amazingly enough, they're all suspect articles again. The headline of the last one was "HIS POOR PARENTS SAY: Jean went there to work, to send us money"...

The ones that aren't amazingly biased just take it as a fact that witnesses say it, but again, I've never seen any quotes from witnesses saying that.

There is some mysterious witness out there, but no one actually has a quote for him. Isn't that a bit suspicious to you? It sounds like they're all referencing eachother...

	27-07-2005 09:27									#29
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Given the prevalence of CCTV in Britain, shouldn't there be footage of the chase, the capture and the shooting?

They should release that to the public. Make it much easier to judge the reasonableness of the use of deadly force.

	27-07-2005 09:34									#30
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assuming the cameras were working