27-07-2005 16:51									#61
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maybe he did electrical work for the bombers - wiring.....fuses.......

	27-07-2005 18:16									#62
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I've been convinced that given the circumstances the police's decision to shoot to kill the victim, while truly horrible, was possibly justified given the situation. Course the police still messed up by letting a supposed suicide bomber reach his target, so they do not get any support from me there. Just to repeat what I said in the last thread, if this guy had been a suicide bomber, he'd have been successful.

	27-07-2005 19:31									#63
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Didn't all the bombs go off in actual trains?

Sure he could have detonated ealier, but he might have tried to go for it.

	27-07-2005 21:20									#64
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If you're going to be that pedantic about it (You've already said the police didn't do things perfectly, yet you seem completely unwilling to accept they did any specific thing wrong!), he did get on the train, and if suicide bombs are as easy to activate as has been described, then he would have been in a decent enough spot to explode. Common sense please.

And that's ignoring the fact he'd already been on a bus, as not all the bombs were detonated on trains.

	27-07-2005 21:39									#65
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It is not ignoring the facts. The terrorists are not concerened with simply killing people. If that was the case they could have had much more success at a hundreds of other places.

They want to kill people and disrupt the trains/buses. That brings the effects of the terrorism home to many more people.

And the police did not handle it perfectly, but that does not mean they had any gross failings in any one area. If you can find any police operation, or any operation of anything, that is absolutely perfect with no room for improvement please do share.

	27-07-2005 21:49									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie And that's ignoring the fact he'd already been on a bus, as not all the bombs were detonated on trains.

The reality is that it was likely impossible for them to stop him from getting on a bus. Think about it-- they have an area under surveillance, that to me says thay don't want to snap the folks up immediately . . they want to observe and follow to see what leads it brings. If you start arresting everyone that comes out the door, the surveillance is obvious and hence useless.

So someone comes out and a few officers follow him. Since I presume that in Britain bus stops are near the sidewalk , it would be almost impossible to stop him getting on a bus. I also assume that these folks were by now alarmed by the bulky jacket and seeking instructions. The instruction was to stop the guy from getting on a train.

The takedown does not sound perfect at all but then again, they didn't know where he was going and presuambly didn't have a lot of time to set up. If they had, they could have completely cleared a lobby area to isolate him. As I understand it, when they confronted him, there were bystanders about. Despite this and the fact that he ran, they successfully neutralized him without injury to other parties. If they had found a bomb on the body, all their actions would seem reasonable.


The problem is that the guy was innocent. Police do have to look at their procedures more closely. But if the end result of that review is a decision that they will continue to shoot suspected bombers that run from police TOWARD A TRAIN STATION, that continues to strike me as a rational decision. yes it is harsh.

On the flip side, the police have to examine how this suspect DID get so far into a train station. perhaps with their available resources that was all that could be done. Does anyone know how long a trip it would have been for the deceased from the flat to the train station? How long would the police have known that he was heading to that train station? I think that people taht say the police were terrible in letting him get on a bus or making it to a train station, underestimate the large logistical problem in trying to bring a take-down team to meet a suspect when you don't know where the suspect is going

	27-07-2005 21:50									#67
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How exactly would blowing up part of a tube station not count as disrupting the service?

I just hope the people in charge realise they let a potential suicide bomber they'd been tailing get so close to the target, and don't just fob themselves off with, "Well, nobody's perfect. Moving on..." as you continually do.

	28-07-2005 08:14									#68
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killing the electrician will probably set back the reconstruction

	28-07-2005 12:55									#69
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Article

Now it's being said that he was not wearing a bulky jacket, and he didn't jump the barrier.

	17-08-2005 00:18									#70
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A bump.

Channel 4 news

Recently leaked documents have revealed that there was no justification whatsoever for the shooting of Mr Menezes. It's only a basic story so far; there'll be more tomorrow.

He did not run from police, nor did he jump the barrier, nor was he wearing a bulky jacket.

	17-08-2005 01:15									#71
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http://www.dailystar.co.uk/story.html?story=0

quote: Early accounts of the shooting described him vaulting over the barriers to the tube station, running to a Tube train and tripping over before being shot. A document from the investigation into the death, obtained by ITV News, said that CCTV footage from the day tells a different story. It captured Mr de Menezes entering the station at a "normal walking pace", even collecting a free Metro newspaper, and slowly descending on an escalator.

Apparently he was wearing nothing out of the ordinary. Sounds like an assassination to me

	17-08-2005 13:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The point is in the UK if you ran you would have no reasonable expectation of being shot because the new policy was not announced. It would be the same in Australia or New Zealand. North America is a very different story. I don't know about Canada but in the USA with its trigger happy gun culture and raging authoritarianism, I think being shot for running would be a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't.

People are usually not shot for fleeing unless they pose an imminent threat to others (such as carrying a bomb). All U.S. police agencies shoot to kill whenever they shoot, even if they claim differently.

	17-08-2005 14:59									#73
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This is not looking good

	17-08-2005 16:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Sounds like an assassination to me

"Assassination"? Do you even know what that word means? If it ever happened in your town you'd be demanding the police shoot to kill. Just another typical example of that wonderful Apolyton OT thinking.

	17-08-2005 18:25									#75
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If the latest details are correct, someone should go to jail for this (as if it wasn't beyond valid excuses already).

	17-08-2005 18:51									#76
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See I was right.... again....

	17-08-2005 18:55									#77
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What sort of surveillance taem hasn't got cover for a toilet break

	17-08-2005 19:48									#78
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all a pack of lies - what a surprise

amazing how often the authoritarian rightist posters on this forum are wrong - gullible lot they are

	17-08-2005 19:56									#79
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Authoritarianism relies on gullible people to thrive, so it's no surprise.

	17-08-2005 20:02									#80
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The police made a collosal ****up here.

The Brits can't do anything right.

AH: I hope you're not saying I'm authoritarian. Given what was public at the time, I thought the police acted how they should've. Given the new information (ie, that the previous information was all lies), I of course condemn their actions.

	17-08-2005 20:06									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse all a pack of lies - what a surprise amazing how often the authoritarian rightist posters on this forum are wrong - gullible lot they are

ISTR most of us said lets wait and see what the investigation shows. I still think that was reasonable. What was accomplished by prejudging the situation?

	17-08-2005 20:18									#82
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Well, the more hotheaded among us instantly recognised some very bad things were done by the police. Some didn't want to assume the police messed up going by the available information (which is fair enough), while others were quick to laugh and insult the dead man for being so stupid. I guess saying the police ****ed up is as big a retraction as we can expect from people like Asher though

	17-08-2005 20:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse amazing how often the authoritarian rightist posters on this forum are wrong - gullible lot they are

Well, they are suffering from a low grade mental illness.

	17-08-2005 20:29									#84
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I sure hope heads will roll on this one. The murderers have no excuse for this crap, and they tried to cover up their crap by inventing lies.

Considering that nobody in the hierarchy reacted to the lies, I imagine that's the whole anti-terrorist organization that has some serious soul-searching ahead

	17-08-2005 21:09									#85
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It's utterly disgusting. What the f**k was going on for these officers to just go onto a train and shoot someone 11 times in the head?! Too damn right heads need to roll!

	17-08-2005 22:10									#86
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They didn't shoot him 11 times; 3 of the bullets missed.

	17-08-2005 22:12									#87
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Given the prevalence of CCTV in Britain, shouldn't there be footage of the chase, the capture and the shooting? They should release that to the public. Make it much easier to judge the reasonableness of the use of deadly force.

Right yet again.

	17-08-2005 22:18									#88
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They didn't shoot him 11 times; 3 of the bullets missed.

Well that makes it all the better then...they still attempted to shoot him 11 times.

	17-08-2005 22:18									#89
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http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/london_bombings

quote: LONDON - A Brazilian shot to death a day after botched bombings in London had walked casually onto a train before being gunned down by undercover officers, according to leaked footage that appeared to contradict earlier police reports that said the man disobeyed police orders.

	17-08-2005 22:22									#90
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It's beginning to look as though the police in this case acted as judge, jury and executioner.