27-07-2005 19:48									#1
	(Firaxis, please read) RIDICULOUSLY EASY-TO-IMPLEMENT suggestions Got spare money?

This thread is for suggestions that could easily be put in at the last moment.

Here's one:

India's city list - Ganges, Indus are RIVERS, Bengal, Punjab, "Rajastan" (sic.) are STATES, not cities. Please please please update India's city list. I'd prefer if Karachi, Lahore and Dhaka were removed, because they aren't in India anymore, but even if they're added to the following list (after Calcutta, Bangalore and Pune respectively), that's fine. I made the list roughly in order of population, with prominence/geographic diversity allowing for a few adjustments.

Delhi
Bombay
Calcutta
Madras
Bangalore
Hyderabad
Pune
Jaipur
Lucknow
Patna
Guwahati
Bhopal
Srinagar
Agra
Bhubaneshwar
Chandigarh
Ahmedabad
Kanpur
Agartala
Mysore
Kochi
Amritsar
Pondicherry
Varanasi
Nagpur
Surat
Indore
Darjeeling
Panjim
Ranchi
Nainital
Vadodara
Jabalpur
Madurai
Aizawl
Imphal
Vijayawada
Hubli-Dharwad
Gwalior
Jodhpur
Visakhapatnam

	27-07-2005 19:58									#2
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How about Vijayanagar? It need not only be modern cities.

	27-07-2005 20:02									#3
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Good point.

Vijayanar
Fatehpur Sikri
Indraprastha
Panipat


There are probably tons of other easy-to-implement suggestions... Leader names for civs?

	27-07-2005 20:36									#4
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Cities in Civilization games represent not real cities, but regions. There is theoretically nothing wrong with state names in the city list. River names on the other hand would be silly.

That said, you will certainly be able to easily modify the city list to your liking. There is a lot of other things to care about in Civ4 at the moment, and I would be very upset if Firaxis would waste resources on city names now.

	27-07-2005 20:47									#5
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I agree that there's alot to be worked on - but it's hardly a waste of resources to edit a little text file, and I'd prefer if it was done before the game shipped than have us gamers all do it ourselves.

And I also think cities should represent cities. I don't want Abe Lincoln sending settlers all over the place to build "California" or "Pennsylvania;" I wouldn't like to see cities called "Szechuan Province," "Eastern Siberia," "Bavaria," "Wales," "Anatolia" etc.

	27-07-2005 21:42									#6
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Well you can want that they should represent cities, but de facto they do not. They combine a city (the capital of the region) and up to 20 other tiles, none of which belongs to the city itself, but serves the purpose to gather food and material resources - just like a rural area. Let's see... capital + rural area = region. Yes.

	27-07-2005 21:49									#7
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I suggest Pataliputra instead of Patna.

I'm fine with Pakistani and Bangladeshi cities being included in India. Pakistan and Bangladesh are still part of the broader Indian culture, and their separation from the nation of India is only the last 60 years of thousands of years of history.

Agreed on cities not having names of states or rivers. It's not like India lacks for a large number of actual cities whose names should be used. It's not like most people playing the game would be familiar with any but the top 5, if that.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Well you can want that they should represent cities, but de facto they do not. They combine a city (the capital of the region) and up to 20 other tiles, none of which belongs to the city itself, but serves the purpose to gather food and material resources - just like a rural area. Let's see... capital + rural area = region. Yes.

If nothing else, it should be consistent. Most, if not all, of the other civs' cities are actual cities. Why should it be different for India?

	27-07-2005 22:17									#8
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I have always considered civ cities to be states/provinces.

A worked tile that is occupied (and especially pillaged) should not just be displaced, but at least lost for a turn, and potentially even cause the city to lose population point.

	27-07-2005 22:37									#9
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I wouldn't consider Toronto a state, but it sprawls over huge areas of land, with rural areas.

	27-07-2005 22:44									#10
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As do Bombay, London, New York, Berlin, etc. That's fine. But noone would argue that "Ontario" is a better name for a Canadian city in Civ (were there a Canadian civ) than "Toronto."

Moreover, Calcutta (and Dhaka and Chittagong) and Lahore (and Amritsar and Chandigarh) are cities that happen to be in the Bengal and Punjab regions respectively, which is another reason not to have those in the game.

	27-07-2005 23:47									#11
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Meh. Hardly worth their time worrying about it, and it's something that anyone can easily fix on their own should they so desire.

	28-07-2005 00:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Meh. Hardly worth their time worrying about it, and it's something that anyone can easily fix on their own should they so desire.

This is also true.

	28-07-2005 00:48									#13
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quote: And I also think cities should represent cities. I don't want Abe Lincoln sending settlers all over the place to build "California" or "Pennsylvania;" I wouldn't like to see cities called "Szechuan Province," "Eastern Siberia," "Bavaria," "Wales," "Anatolia" etc.

Actually, when I play on an Earth map, I tend to rename cities to region or state names. So I will have cities called Portugal, California, Alps or Savoie. Anatolia is actually a favourite of mine. But I agree that they'd better have a correct city list as these are still supposed to be cities.

	28-07-2005 01:22									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Meh. Hardly worth their time worrying about it, and it's something that anyone can easily fix on their own should they so desire.

However, they also have it ready-done for them in the OP.

	28-07-2005 01:33									#15
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They'd still need to verify that all the names are correct, and it's very possible that no one from Firaxis read this thread.

	28-07-2005 02:22									#16
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Well, I think it's the sort of thing they should do anyway. You wouldn't release a game, especially one of the caliber that a game of the Civ genre demands, without checking it thoroughly for typos, grammar etc. This should be no different. In my opinion, everything about this release should be of top quality, including commitment to factual content (especially if all it involves is editing a text file to change some words here and there after a quick Google search to verify stuff).

	28-07-2005 02:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by LordShiva Well, I think it's the sort of thing they should do anyway. You wouldn't release a game, especially one of the caliber that a game of the Civ genre demands, without checking it thoroughly for typos, grammar etc. This should be no different. In my opinion, everything about this release should be of top quality, including commitment to factual content (especially if all it involves is editing a text file to change some words here and there after a quick Google search to verify stuff).

You'd rather have all the city names correct and historical than have a more balanced AI?

	28-07-2005 02:39									#18
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quote: Well, I think it's the sort of thing they should do anyway.

Because of their vast Indian market?

quote: You wouldn't release a game, especially one of the caliber that a game of the Civ genre demands, without checking it thoroughly for typos, grammar etc.

You'd be surprised.

	28-07-2005 02:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear You'd rather have all the city names correct and historical than have a more balanced AI?

No, but, like I said, it's not like having someone edit a text-file means that other efforts must necessarily be hampered at all.

	28-07-2005 02:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by LordShiva No, but, like I said, it's not like having someone edit a text-file means that other efforts must necessarily be hampered at all.

It wouldn't just be that. They'd have to re-do the list for every civilization then, not just for India. I'd imagine it's more time-consuming than you think.

	28-07-2005 02:50									#21
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1. Firaxis should do its homework and get this stuff right, consistent, etc. After all, one of the appeals of the game is you just might learn something about other parts of the world.

2. But there will always be mistakes like this when released, which means a patch definitely should get at them.

3. Until then, the player can easily modify this stuff until a (hopefully) Firaxis-released fix.

4. While my sense is that this is something an intern could fix and wouldn't therefore jeopardize work being done on the AI, etc., if push came to shove, this is a low priority as long as there's an understanding to fix it down the road.

	28-07-2005 03:06									#22
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City names often vary (at least in spelling) as the years pass, especially over thousands of years. Therefore, I advise being lenient in your criticisms of others' naming of cities ... they may have taken it from another time or another source.

	28-07-2005 03:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear You'd rather have all the city names correct and historical than have a more balanced AI?

I don't think there's much overlap in skillset between "strategy games AI programmer" and "geography/history researcher." I'm sure there are a bunch of people who would do it for free. Heck, they can just release the list of city names right now in a Wiki and just see how the community responds. It's not like the capital of Russia is some big secret they want to keep until the game is released.

If they're going to do it, they're going to do it right.

	28-07-2005 04:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by sophist I don't think there's much overlap in skillset between "strategy games AI programmer" and "geography/history researcher." I'm sure there are a bunch of people who would do it for free. Heck, they can just release the list of city names right now in a Wiki and just see how the community responds. It's not like the capital of Russia is some big secret they want to keep until the game is released. If they're going to do it, they're going to do it right.

I have my doubts that there is anything like a "geography/history researcher." Firaxis isn't Blizzard or Bioware, and I'm sure they have a fairly tight budget. I think you over-estimate the amount of people that would be willing to research around 720 names, and they run the risk of people leaking the information. This isn't about the capital of Russia, it's about obscure cities that the average person wouldn't know about.

	28-07-2005 04:03									#25
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Once again: The Intern

	28-07-2005 04:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Once again: The Intern

That's assuming that the intern isn't already doing some other project.

	28-07-2005 04:07									#27
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Man. I love quoting so much of myself with you! Keeps me deeply engaged:

quote: 4. While my sense is that this is something an intern could fix and wouldn't therefore jeopardize work being done on the AI, etc., if push came to shove, this is a low priority as long as there's an understanding to fix it down the road.

	28-07-2005 04:17									#28
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Man. I love quoting so much of myself with you! Keeps me deeply engaged: quote: 4. While my sense is that this is something an intern could fix and wouldn't therefore jeopardize work being done on the AI, etc., if push came to shove, this is a low priority as long as there's an understanding to fix it down the road.

Har, har, har. If you stated your opinion once, why do you state it again afterwards in a slightly different manner?

	28-07-2005 04:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear You'd rather have all the city names correct and historical than have a more balanced AI?

That's not the question.

quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear It wouldn't just be that. They'd have to re-do the list for every civilization then, not just for India. I'd imagine it's more time-consuming than you think.

Why?
18 civs, 40 names for each, equal to 720 names. No big deal. A secretary can do this. The receptionist at Firaxis building can do this.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Well, I think it's the sort of thing they should do anyway. Because of their vast Indian market?

It's a good reason, isn't?

	28-07-2005 04:22									#30
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quote: Har, har, har. If you stated your opinion once, why do you state it again afterwards in a slightly different manner?

Just helping people who don't/can't read, I guess. I'm helpful that way.