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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
You're misrepresenting me- there seems to be a rash of this lately.
I haven't said that the United Kingdom is a PROTESTANT state- I've simply pointed out the startlingly obvious, that the Act of Settlement disbars Catholics from the succession, and disbars a royal who marries a Catholic or who converts to Catholicism. It doesn't also specify Muslims or Hindus or Seventh Day Adventists.
It also wasn't a point about the personal power invested in the hands of the reigning monarch, but thanks for bringing that strawnman up too.
As for the IRA complaining about 'Catholic' land being occupied, I've never suggested such a thing. However, they did want to 'return' the six counties to Ireland,a state which had an inbuilt bias towards Catholicism in its constitution.
Given the position of fundamentalist Protestant Unionists (the Pope is the Antichrist, et cetera) one doesn't have to be a genius to join the dots and see the sectarian side of the picture.
Oh, and OBL and Al Qaeda's Sunni fundamentalism is remarkably flexible when it wants to be- videos ? cameras ? photgraphs and websites ?
So much for the Sunni fundamentalist view on the banning of the reproduction of images. |
An inbuilt Catholic bias???? Geez louise. Muslim states that enforce Sharia family law, and that in general out religion the Irish Republic by a long ways, are considered secularist devils by AQ, not worthy of even being called Muslims.
And yes their Sunni fundamentalism is flexible - so what. Their particular ideology is flexible on certain things, and decidedly inflexible on other things. That hardly shows that religion isnt central to their ideology.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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Molly, have you ever read a book on Al Qaeeda, or related groups? It doesnt sound like you have. (i freely admit to not having read anything on 20th century Ireland, and I should) It really sounds like youve decided the way to reply to the bigoted rightwingers is to assert that AQ is really no different in its motivations from the factions in Ireland, ergo Islam is no different from Christianity, ergo stop bashing muslims.
NOw this really isnt necessarily. It is wrong, profoundly wrong, to bash innocent muslims, who hold views of Islam diametrically at odds from those of AQ and other Qutbists, for the actions of the radicals. But while unnecessary, your apparentely a priori view has caused you to engage in absurd sophistry.
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child of Thor
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ALL religions have done terrible things at some point, and many continue to do so.(here's a challange - someone find a religion that has a spotless record)
In most of these cases its about the politics that hi-jack the religion.
So we have Al-queda using Islam and Neo-cons using christianity(which is just their umbrella for another faith i expect) in this current conflict.
Both use religion to further their political aims, even when using tactics that are completely against many of the fundemental principals of the particualr religion.
And both are 'evil' in their own ways for doing so.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
An inbuilt Catholic bias???? Geez louise. Muslim states that enforce Sharia family law, and that in general out religion the Irish Republic by a long ways, are considered secularist devils by AQ, not worthy of even being called Muslims.
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Exactly how does this disprove that the Irish Republic had an inbuilt bias ?
I doubt very much that the Easter Rising, foundation of the Free State and Irish Civil War occupy much if any of Al Qaeda's thinking. In any case, I was talking about the perception of Ulster Unionist fundamentalist Protestants- you know, the ones who believe the Pope is the Antichrist ?
Let's hear an eye-witness to the Easter Rising:
quote:
The second question might plausibly be called a religious one. It has been so called, and, for it is less troublesome to accept an idea than to question it, the statement has been accepted as truth- but it is untrue, and it is deeply and villainously untrue. No lie in Irish in Irish life has been so persistent and so mischievous as this one, and no political lie has ever been so ingeniously, and malevolently exploited.
There is no religious intolerance in Ireland except that which is political...
...I have never found real intolerance among my fellow-countrymen of that religion. I have found it among Protestants. [...]
But outside of the north of Ireland there is no religious question... clustered around it is a body of men whose hatred of their country is persistent and deadly and unexplained. |
James Stephens, 'The Insurrection in Dublin' 1916, Scepter Books
Of course this was before the hardening of attitudes in the later Anglo-Irish war following the execution of the Easter rebels, and before De Valera's archaic conception of some kind of rural Catholic Celtic Revival mythical Eire.
I can (unhappily) contradict Mr Stephens by personal experience- I was brought up in an Irish Catholic Republican tradition which had by then learned to despise Protestants, especially Ulster Protestants.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Exactly how does this disprove that the Irish Republic had an inbuilt bias ?
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The original question I thought was about the nature of Islam, and the existence within it of certain important and dangerous grouping (which does not mean that there is a problem with ALL Islam, or all muslims)
To which somebody responded (maybe it wasnt you) that ALL religions have their violent fanatics, that Christianity was really no different from Islam. In the attempt to demonstrate this with examples from the 20th century, somebody turned to Ireland. Which it seems to me, while an awful tragedy, is hardly an example of violence inspired fundamentalist religion in the way AQ and related islamist groups are. That the IRA wanted, for purely secular reasons, to join an Irish Republic that has an inbuilt Catholic bias hardly makes them religiously based the way groups that advocate radical versions of sharia, and denounce the very idea of a state that isnt based purely on Islam, and call for the return of the caliphate, is kinda silly. In catholic terms, it would be like saying the IRA and Opus Dei are equivalent (except that AQ is, I think, rather more extreme than Opus Dei)
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Exactly how does this disprove that the Irish Republic had an inbuilt bias ?
I doubt very much that the Easter Rising, foundation of the Free State and Irish Civil War occupy much if any of Al Qaeda's thinking. In any case, I was talking about the perception of Ulster Unionist fundamentalist Protestants- you know, the ones who believe the Pope is the Antichrist ?
Let's hear an eye-witness to the Easter Rising:
James Stephens, 'The Insurrection in Dublin' 1916, Scepter Books
Of course this was before the hardening of attitudes in the later Anglo-Irish war following the execution of the Easter rebels, and before De Valera's archaic conception of some kind of rural Catholic Celtic Revival mythical Eire.
I can (unhappily) contradict Mr Stephens by personal experience- I was brought up in an Irish Catholic Republican tradition which had by then learned to despise Protestants, especially Ulster Protestants. |
I know Jews who despise Muslims, especially Palestinian muslims. Some of these Jews are agnostics or atheists. Similarly there seem to be good atheist arabs like George Habash who are quite happy to murder Jews. Hating the members of a particular religious community, doesnt imply that YOUR motivation is religious, especially not where religion is functioning as a marker for ethnicity.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Hating the members of a particular religious community, doesnt imply that YOUR motivation is religious, especially not where religion is functioning as a marker for ethnicity. |
Right. The 'Revd.' Ian Paisley's dislike of the Pope and labelling him the Antichrist is based on sound secular principles. 
Personal testimony from the North (which applied to the South too, for a long time):
quote:
But giving up one's religion can- especially in the North- involve rejecting so much else that is important to life- the sense of being accepted by one's community, family circle and indeed, entire culture. |
Only The River Run Free: Northern Ireland: The Women's War, Pluto Press
Where we find also the quotes following:
quote:
The U.F.F. are the Ulster Freedom Fighters. In his book 'Northern Ireland: The Orange State' Michael Farrell describes them as an 'extreme Loyalist murder squad who announced their intention of killingCatholics in 1973. They claimed responsibility for themurder of an S.D.L.P. senator in June 1973, and subsequently many other Catholics. It is generally assumed that U.F.F. is a pseudonym for U.D.A. murder gangs.
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE] In the Republic government social policy is openly based on the Vatican's. (You know, where Antichrist is meant to be) Divorce, for example, is completely illegal, as are abortion and homosexuality. Until 1979, Southern Irishwomen could not even obtain contraception, and in practice many are still unable to. Under the censorship of Information Act, even books and pamphlets about birth control are, in theory, still banned. |
quote:
...Woman lured man into sin....The sexual values of Irish Catholic society rigidly reflect this one-sideed view of human nature. |
quote:
Mary Nelis: " Here, after all these years of struggle and war, I think that the only thing you could really say unites the Catholic people IS their Catholicsm. We haven't developed politically. What havewe learned in 12 years, what have we achieved? Nothing. Our Catholicism is what appears to make us oppressed, and our Catholicism is what helps to keep us that way..." |
quote:
In a similar vein the Kilkeel Democratic Unionist Party attacked the local school for showing 'The Sound of Music' because of its 'distinctive Romanist trend' . |
From 'On The Blanket: The H-Block Story' by Tim Pat Coogan, Ward River Press, Dublin:
quote:
The best description overall for the differing categories of prisoners, like their counterparts outside the jail, is probably 'Protestant' and 'Catholic'. [...] At his school the Protestant learned English history. The Catholic by contrast learned Irish history and also the Irish language. [...] The differences are as much cultural as religious. |
Find me the common denominator- it is religion, isn't it ?
Interesting is it not, that you feel free to engage in this kind of reply to my assertion about the culture and government policy of Eire:
quote:
An inbuilt Catholic bias???? Geez louise. |
despite admitting later that:
quote:
I freely admit to not having read anything on 20th century Ireland, and I should . |
And then have the chutzpah to presume that I have not:
quote:
... ever read a book on Al Qaeda, or related groups? It doesn't sound like you have. |
and claim that I'm:
quote:
engaging in absurd sophistry. |
So, based on your inaccurate assumption, let's imagine that nearly twenty years ago at university I never debated with a Sunni fundmentalist biologist from Pakistan at the Islamic Society's meeting, about his view that A.I.D.S and H.I.V. were divinely ordained punishments for sexual misconduct, based on his view that animals didn't acquire these diseases and his reading of the Qu'ran.
He was soundly mocked by members of the audience who Muslims and science students, who told him to his face that his sort of science was bringing both science and Islam into disrepute.
Let's also imagine that I have never read 'Militant Islam' by G.H. Jansen, or 'The Society of the Muslim Brothers' by R.P. Mitchell, or indeed any other book pertaining to the rise of Muslim fundamentalist organisations around the world, because that's an easy assumption to make when I draw comparisons about a society and history and religious divide you freely claim to know little or nothing about and one you infer that you do, and I do not.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
loyalty being defined as a sense of obligation before someone, due to one's beliefs and convictions. |
Beliefs and convictions are possible causes of loyalty, but they aren't the only ones. The feeling of identity (which can have to do with birth, with initiation rituals and so on) is a strong factor of loyalty, and is different than the support to a value system (identification is "emotional", support to values is "evaluative").
When I visited Sweden as a tourist, I fell in love with what I saw of the Swedish ethos  I found it vastly superior to the French one. However, I am still more loyal to France than to Sweden  (despite being quite a rational guy).
In the poll, among the people who don't feel loyal to Britain, there might be people who loathe what Britain stands for.
But there can also be people who intended to migrate in Britain for a few years (and thus who stay attached to their homeland) ; there can be people who stayed in communities and thus kept their previous lifestyle (thus not identifying with the British identity) etc. I'm not saying it's a good thing, as I'm an outspoken opponent of communitarism, but I'm saying that the lack of loyalty is a complex phenomenon.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
In the attempt to demonstrate this with examples from the 20th century, somebody turned to Ireland. Which it seems to me, while an awful tragedy, is hardly an example of violence inspired fundamentalist religion in the way AQ and related islamist groups are. That the IRA wanted, for purely secular reasons, to join an Irish Republic that has an inbuilt Catholic bias hardly makes them religiously based the way groups that advocate radical versions of sharia, and denounce the very idea of a state that isnt based purely on Islam, and call for the return of the caliphate, is kinda silly. |
That was me.
My point was being a Christian does not automatically make a person peaceful. OTOH, being a Muslim does not automatically make a person violent.
AFAIK, this suicidal attack thing was denounced by mainstream Islamic scholars several years back. Right after 9/11 I believe.
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11-08-2005 00:03
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