10-08-2005 19:15									#121
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quote: They're parts of that society, in the sense that they talk and interact, and hold relatioships, sure, but I don't think they're LOYAL to their societies.

And I'm sure wave after wave of conservatives (even moderates) would tell you that they don't think that Communists and Socialists are loyal to the society they live in.

I don't consider that to be a failing.

	10-08-2005 19:32									#122
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sure islam is not a religion of peace...

but let's talk about x-ianity

morons are against stem cell research that could save millions of lives because of the ignorant belief that a microscopic piece of crap has a soul...

therefore, opponents of stem cell research are murderers because people are dying as a result of their ridiculous beliefs.

	10-08-2005 21:12									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's certainly false, since only 10% of British Muslims don't considerd themselves at all loyal to Britain. 10% is significantly smaller than 31%.

You've mixed things a bit. One question was about society, the other was about state. Also, they could lie. Also,

quote: sure islam is not a religion of peace... but let's talk about x-ianity morons are against stem cell research that could save millions of lives because of the ignorant belief that a microscopic piece of crap has a soul... therefore, opponents of stem cell research are murderers because people are dying as a result of their ridiculous beliefs.

If You accept that this "piece of crap" is human, You're accepting mass murder if You allow stem research.
I'm sure Hitler would describe black people, Jews or Slavs as "piece of crap" and deny their humanity as well.
Of course, his view is harder to defend, but any boarderline between human - that is a specie You're identifying yourself with - is a matter of discussion.
He identified with people of one race only, You're identifying with people above certain number of cells.
Word "backword" is only indication of your personal attitude, and can not be an arguement in this discussion.
If You accept that
Also, if You don't see a difference between blowing someone up and defending a life of someone - or something - despite the fact that his or its death may be benefitial for the society, You're suprising me.

	10-08-2005 21:24									#124
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Godwin!

please though Herresen, in your infinite wisdom, explain to us all how something with no brain cells has a soul...

	10-08-2005 21:41									#125
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You don't need a brain to have a soul

	10-08-2005 21:42									#126
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And You can find evidence for my hypothesis in this very forum.

	10-08-2005 21:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It is utterly pointless trying to portray either side as being only or mainly secular or nationalist or unionist rather than being religiously inspired, especially if one is attempting to say that Islamic terrorism is only religiously inspired. In Northern Ireland the religious divide fuels the conflict- and geopolitics in the Muslim world fuels Islamic terrorism. As for trying to stay in the U.K.- yes of course Unionists are. The same United Kingdom which still has an Act of Parliament disbarring any member of the Royal family from inheriting the throne if he or she marries a Catholic or converts to Catholicism. These things die a long lingering death.

Molly - It depends which islamic terrorism youre talking about. If you mean Hamas, Id say you have a point - Hamas lives on a mix of religion and nationalism, just as the unionist groups in NI do (I still am of the impression that radical Republicans in NI are pretty secularist) Im not sure its EXACTLY the same - my impression is that Hamas is rather more focused on religion than are the Unionists, but i know too little about the unionists to say so, and in any case thats a difference in degree, not in kind.

I think you are wrong in looking at AQ this way. AQs ideology is decidedly religious - its hostile to the existence of individual muslim "nation states". Their take on certain local conflicts is from a strictly Islamic POV - in their statements the "zionists" are occupying MUSLIM land, NOT Palestinian land. Does anyone IRA man ever complain about Brit occupation of CATHOLIC land?

As for the UK being a protestant state cause of the limit on the king, now youre just being silly. The king has no real power in the Brit system today anyway. IIUC Blairs wife is RC, and Michael Howard, who ran for PM, is Jewish. And of course Britain is a largely secular society. Whereever in the muslim world there are states that are even half as secular as the UK is, AQ wants to overthrow the regime, or even destroy the state, not cling to it and fly its flag.

	10-08-2005 21:47									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yes, let's deport everyone who thinks Western society is decadent and immoral; there goes 3/4 of the Republican Party (and a good fraction of the conservative Dems).

youre right. It would be stupid to deport every muslim who says western society is decadent and immoral (the 30%) (though Im not sure id miss Jerry Falwell, myself) So how about the 10% who say theyre not at all loyal? Or even just the 1% who say that the decadent and immoral society should be opposed by violence?

	10-08-2005 21:48									#129
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and yes, if anyone wants to also deport Christian, atheists, and jews, who believe that decadent western society should be fought with violence, im prepared to support that. Hell, I'll be happy to do what i can to identify Kahanists for deportation.

	10-08-2005 21:51									#130
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Again, I believe immigrants, when allowed into the state, should ungergo a big test checking if they fit the nation they chose to live in.
That will not solve the problem, because next generation may have another opinion in many matters.

	10-08-2005 21:58									#131
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quote: youre right. It would be stupid to deport every muslim who says western society is decadent and immoral (the 30%) (though Im not sure id miss Jerry Falwell, myself) So how about the 10% who say theyre not at all loyal? Or even just the 1% who say that the decadent and immoral society should be opposed by violence?

What you're missing is that the truly great thing about the free society we have is that you can think what you want, without being imprisoned or deported for those thoughts. That's what I most want to preserve, and that (as well as Janis Joplin and garlic-cheese grits) is why I'm an American.

	10-08-2005 22:05									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What you're missing is that the truly great thing about the free society we have is that you can think what you want, without being imprisoned or deported for those thoughts. That's what I most want to preserve, and that (as well as Janis Joplin and garlic-cheese grits) is why I'm an American.

I think you should think anything you want in a free society, EXCEPT for the destruction of that free society. Free society isnt a suicide pact.


and of course it isnt the thoughts that are the problem, but the likelihood that in the future you will act on them, either directly, or indirectly, by failing to give your full support to your society against those who would destroy it AND its freedoms.

	10-08-2005 22:06									#133
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Isn't holocaust denial, racism, sexism etc a crime in America?

	10-08-2005 22:08									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Isn't holocaust denial, racism, sexism etc a crime in America?

No. none of the above.

IF you commit a crime, AND you are shown to be motivated by racism, sexism, etc than is a hate crime in some states, and can get you a stiffer sentence. This notion is debated by civil libertarians. But for the thought or speech alone, no.

You can only be prosecuted for speech in the cases of obscenity, libel, and commercial fraud. Or when speech becomes action - youre directing someone to do something specific. Theres been controversy about how direct that has to be.

	10-08-2005 22:12									#135
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Thank You for information.

	10-08-2005 22:13									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What you're missing is that the truly great thing about the free society we have is that you can think what you want, without being imprisoned or deported for those thoughts. That's what I most want to preserve, and that (as well as Janis Joplin and garlic-cheese grits) is why I'm an American.

Ok, suppose we dont deport them. Would you acknowledge that the 1% and the 10% are a huge problem? That while we cant deport them, we'd be better off without them? That it might be worthwhile to monitor them?

	10-08-2005 22:37									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson You don't need a brain to have a soul

	10-08-2005 22:45									#138
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Feel free to quote me

	10-08-2005 22:47									#139
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actually, i'd like to apply your logic to other organs...

"You don't need lungs to oxygenate your blood!"

"You don't need a heart to circulate your blood!"

"You don't need a digestive system to digest food!"

"You don't need nuts to impregnate a woman!"

	10-08-2005 22:59									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Sava actually, i'd like to apply your logic to other organs... "You don't need lungs to oxygenate your blood!"

oxigenation is a natural process. Enough to pour your blood somewhere and it will oxigenate a bit.

quote: "You don't need a heart to circulate your blood!"

Artificial heart.

quote: "You don't need a digestive system to digest food!"

Taenia saginata

quote: "You don't need nuts to impregnate a woman!"

God does not have nuts, and He did impregnate Mary.

But anyway,
soul is not a matter of functioning of the brain. At least for some it doesn't have to be.

	10-08-2005 23:04									#141
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DR. Heresson, MD

	10-08-2005 23:08									#142
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MD?

	10-08-2005 23:10									#143
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quote: I think you should think anything you want in a free society, EXCEPT for the destruction of that free society.

Why? What is so horrible about thinking about the destruction of a 'free' society? What if you don't think the society is that free? Socialists and Communists who want to destroy Western society because they believe it enslaves workers shouldn't find themselves in jail for simple believing that. Muslims who find the US to be decadent and thus wish to destroy US society shouldn't be shown the door for simply that belief.

If you couple it with violence, it is different. But words alone, with no intent to stir up trouble, should be protected.

	10-08-2005 23:11									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson MD?

MASSIVE DOUCHE??

just kidding...

MD = Medical Doctor

	10-08-2005 23:17									#145
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quote: Ok, suppose we dont deport them. Would you acknowledge that the 1% and the 10% are a huge problem? That while we cant deport them, we'd be better off without them? That it might be worthwhile to monitor them?

Monitoring isn't a problem as long as it's narrowly tailored to seriously violent groups and is respectful of their civil liberties. As an anarcho-syndicalist, you might understand that I'm skeptical of such gov't operations.

	10-08-2005 23:25									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Monitoring isn't a problem as long as it's narrowly tailored to seriously violent groups and is respectful of their civil liberties. As an anarcho-syndicalist, you might understand that I'm skeptical of such gov't operations.

If theyre groups that are engaged in violence, then the govt certainly has the right to arrest them, imprison, them deport them. They can choose to monitor them only for strategic reasons, but as UK has seen, thats problematic. Im talking about groups (and religious leaders, mosques, etc) that support, incite, etc the destruction of the society by violence, even if they havent actually been caught IMPLEMENTING that ideology.

	10-08-2005 23:33									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think you should think anything you want in a free society, EXCEPT for the destruction of that free society. "Why? What is so horrible about thinking about the destruction of a 'free' society? What if you don't think the society is that free? Socialists and Communists who want to destroy Western society because they believe it enslaves workers shouldn't find themselves in jail for simple believing that. Muslims who find the US to be decadent and thus wish to destroy US society shouldn't be shown the door for simply that belief. If you couple it with violence, it is different. But words alone, with no intent to stir up trouble, should be protected.

In general I would tolerate words alone. Thats the American way, afterall. But I dont think free societies are OBLIGATED too do so. As for people who dont think the society is free, thats a red herring. We're talking about people who want to destroy the society BECAUSE it is free. I dont see that we need such folks. Im not calling for a witch hunt. Would it be wrong to ask would be immigrants to swear to support a free society? And to deport them for lying on their immigration form, if it turns out they do not? Or suppose we implement security measures that cause many to consider leaving - as it is said is happening now in Britain? Would it be wrong to take satisfaction in the (voluntary) departure of those who would destroy freedom?

	10-08-2005 23:38									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson You don't need a brain to have a soul

So, all organic life forms have a soul?

	10-08-2005 23:41									#149
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That You don't need a brain to have a soul doesn't mean that everything without a brain has a soul.

	11-08-2005 00:00									#150
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In general I would tolerate words alone. Thats the American way, afterall. But I dont think free societies are OBLIGATED too do so. As for people who dont think the society is free, thats a red herring. We're talking about people who want to destroy the society BECAUSE it is free. I dont see that we need such folks. Im not calling for a witch hunt. Would it be wrong to ask would be immigrants to swear to support a free society? And to deport them for lying on their immigration form, if it turns out they do not? Or suppose we implement security measures that cause many to consider leaving - as it is said is happening now in Britain? Would it be wrong to take satisfaction in the (voluntary) departure of those who would destroy freedom?

Freedom... pah! The world is a prison, you can just choose if you want a nice looking cell or not. And you have freedoms in islam as well, it's just that the cells are smaller.

The biggest blocker to freedom is what everyone (including me of course) is so obsessed with: property. You buy a piece of land, you put a fence around, tada. Nobody can walk there anymore without your permission. You have successfully limited the freedom of others. And so it goes on and on, until every bit belongs to someone and nobody can do anything and in the end you download a song off the internet and you are allowed to listen to it exactly two and a half times.