31-07-2005 22:36									#91
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quote: Oh that's all right then- I'm sure their victims will be pleased. Especially the Protestant ones. Oh, and although the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland could have excommunicated the I.R.A. , or used the threat of excommunication, they chose not to do so- even though Irish women who wanted to have abortions and not murder fifteen people in the process with a landmine say, were threatened with excommunication. Religion and nationalism- twice the stupidity in one movement.

The Catholic institution - namely the pope - condemned the IRA. Although corrupt priests and Christians committed crimes (although nowhere near as murderous in sum as the muslim terrorists) they were clearly functioning outside the sanctions of Christianity.

Islam has no central voice and so if infinitely more open to such abuse. As a result - Islamists kill many more innocents, and they do so as part of a jihad (( not a nationalist agenda)). They internationally institutionalize barbaric customs and the repression of women.

	31-07-2005 22:43									#92
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Also if you watch all this from a distance, it is very clear that it is the same old goals that have driven humanity since the first neaderdal banged with a baseball bat another neaderdal on the head. Control of energy sources. This is the first layer of reading one can do about what's going on. There are differantiations as you go deeper with democracy and absolutism etc.
How can a democracy use such tactics, do such things?

Well if you label something "democratic" you pretty much think you have the legitimation to do just about anything. Then you have countries like Iran with a despicable human rights record, again sitting on vast resources of oil or with the capacity to disrupt your plans in the region with regard to control said energy sources. An absolut human rights violating regime is in power however with the will and strength so far to disregard the wishes of the "superpower".
Needless to say, when this happens in other parts of the world which are insignificant when it comes to energy sources, any responce is much more subdued, if there is any at all.
So if you watch it from afar, it all boils down to that first neaderdal hitting with the bat the other neaderdal to take away his terrotory with the lake of fishes. Control of energy sources. Then it becomes complicated.

	31-07-2005 22:47									#93
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quote: However I'll say again that sometimes people rally under one banner. They have to do this or the "movement" won't go anywhere. This banner must have the potential to rally them or most of them under neath it. Sometimes this is communism other times it's Islamic fundamentalism. The point though is that underneath this comfy all encompasing banner they rally under, the goals may be not very different than an effort to liberate/thow out a yock, as they see it. So the aparatus may be different but the goals may converge, even between IRA and Islamic fundamentalists and other terrorist groups.

The "aparatus" is of critical importance. In the case of Islamist terror, it is directly linked to religious beliefs...

	31-07-2005 22:56									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf The "aparatus" is of critical importance. In the case of Islamist terror, it is directly linked to religious beliefs...

Well IMO it has to be. First you need to base your "movememnt" on something that in semiological terms is opposite to the one you are fighting. And one with which you can get many people to identify with and at the same time distance themselves with what they're fighting against represents. After that, religion is a very powerful tool as it's an all encompassing cosmotheory, capable of offering comfort to the people that or about to die or go down fighting for what they think it's "good". There are many paradigms in other religions about that, about giving comfort to those who are about to die for "something". It's a very strong manipulation tool.

	01-08-2005 14:51									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf The Catholic institution - namely the pope - condemned the IRA. Although corrupt priests and Christians committed crimes (although nowhere near as murderous in sum as the muslim terrorists) they were clearly functioning outside the sanctions of Christianity.

So clearly in fact that the Catholic hierarchy still didn't manage to even excommunicate them.

I'd find your view of the situation in Northern Ireland utterly hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

What fuels the divide and provides foot soldiers for the continuing violence ?

Separate sectarian schooling, each religious community inculcating its members with myths and perpetuating the division.

There is no central authority for Protestant fundamentalists- so presumably they too can 'interpret' their religion as they wish, just as you say Muslims do. But don't take my word for it, let's hear from a Protestant in Northern Ireland :

" I have the cover of the wings of the Almighty Jehovah and until my work is done in Ulster, I will still be here to preach it out."

Ian Paisley, 'The Sunday World' 1980

Handy those wings- must beat a raincoat any day.

As for Islam's iniquitous attitude to women let's see what Mrs. Paisley has to say about women's rights:

" They say they want to be equal to men, but a woman must be on a pedestal to a man so men can look up to her and give her respect. [...]

Women are lowering themselves by wanting to be like men, and I've said that before...."

from: 'Protestant Women In Belfast'


And of course if there were any things that united the Catholic hierarchy with Protestant fundamentalists, it was women's rights, contraception, access to abortion and any kind of perceived sexual deviation.

" 'Jesus, don't let me have any more...' ...that's all I ever used to pray. The twelfth or thirteenth pregnancy, I nearly died, but I didn't care. I wanted to die. All I wanted was some peace.

I've been pregnant 20 times in all, maybe 22, maybe 25, I can't be sure. That's 13 born alive, five miscarriages, and two dead babies. And then there's all the other times, when I was late and took poisons and pills and things to bring myself on."

Nora, aged 59

from 'Handmaidens of the Lord'

both chapters in : 'Only The Rivers Run Free- Northern Ireland: The Women's War'


Any attempt to try to pretend that the religious divide is unconnected from the political divide in Northern Ireland or perpetuates the cycle of violence is absurd.

So the Nationalists weren't killing to turn Northern Ireland into a theocratic state- so what ?

	02-08-2005 08:59									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Well, actually, the number is 74%.

What a lame attempt to compare apples and oranges So 74% of (US) christians support the death penalty. What percentage of muslims support the death penalty?

	02-08-2005 12:56									#97
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Ahem. I thought we were discussing Islam?

	04-08-2005 20:43									#98
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom So clearly in fact that the Catholic hierarchy still didn't manage to even excommunicate them. I'd find your view of the situation in Northern Ireland utterly hilarious if it weren't so tragic. What fuels the divide and provides foot soldiers for the continuing violence ? Separate sectarian schooling, each religious community inculcating its members with myths and perpetuating the division. There is no central authority for Protestant fundamentalists- so presumably they too can 'interpret' their religion as they wish, just as you say Muslims do. But don't take my word for it, let's hear from a Protestant in Northern Ireland : " I have the cover of the wings of the Almighty Jehovah and until my work is done in Ulster, I will still be here to preach it out." Ian Paisley, 'The Sunday World' 1980 Handy those wings- must beat a raincoat any day. As for Islam's iniquitous attitude to women let's see what Mrs. Paisley has to say about women's rights: " They say they want to be equal to men, but a woman must be on a pedestal to a man so men can look up to her and give her respect. [...] Women are lowering themselves by wanting to be like men, and I've said that before...." from: 'Protestant Women In Belfast' And of course if there were any things that united the Catholic hierarchy with Protestant fundamentalists, it was women's rights, contraception, access to abortion and any kind of perceived sexual deviation. " 'Jesus, don't let me have any more...' ...that's all I ever used to pray. The twelfth or thirteenth pregnancy, I nearly died, but I didn't care. I wanted to die. All I wanted was some peace. I've been pregnant 20 times in all, maybe 22, maybe 25, I can't be sure. That's 13 born alive, five miscarriages, and two dead babies. And then there's all the other times, when I was late and took poisons and pills and things to bring myself on." Nora, aged 59 from 'Handmaidens of the Lord' both chapters in : 'Only The Rivers Run Free- Northern Ireland: The Women's War' Any attempt to try to pretend that the religious divide is unconnected from the political divide in Northern Ireland or perpetuates the cycle of violence is absurd. So the Nationalists weren't killing to turn Northern Ireland into a theocratic state- so what ?

You are drawing the obvious parallels between the IRA and muslim fundamentalists while ignoring every other major difference. Of course Catholics committed terrorism, doing so in the name of nationalism (fine, you can argue the same about the insurgents in Iraq - to a very limited extent), whereas - and you kind of ignore this - that was, compared to Muslim terrorism, an isolated incident in history condemned by the highest wing of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, whereas Islam has developed into its current violence because of years and years of hatred of the west (either blame yourself or blame the west - why not blame the west? especially since it means your entire religion can return to its barbaric roots...), Catholocism has gone the completely opposite direction from centuries ago. You are right to draw some comparisons but you are completely missing the major differences between the two religions...

	04-08-2005 20:57									#99
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molly, IIUC, in Northern Ireland religion is largely a marker of ethnicity. The IRA leaders are leaders are largely secularists. While the right wing protestant leaders may not be, the motivations driving their followers are ethnic and nationalist - much as many of the supporters of Hamas are driven, so it is said, by nationalist concerns, not religious ones. After all, theyre trying to stay in the United Kingdom, which isnt exactly a hardline Protestant country.

	04-08-2005 21:35									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../ixnewstop.html With this many British muslims clearly on the side of terrorism (100,000 by any estimation) , I really just have a simple question - how can these numbers possibly be justified, if Islam is truly a religion of peace? We are not talking about birth control, or other issues that Christians may disagree on. We are talking about unmitigated mass murder.

56% can understand their motives... I wonder why it's not 100%. This makes it look like understanding your enemy is a wrong thing to do. Everyone can understand the motives of your opponents, no? You don't agree with them, but you can understand them.

I'd understand why someone would want to shoot me if I am substantially richer than him. You know envy is a good motive. Does this mean anything? No.

	04-08-2005 21:51									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa 56% can understand their motives... I wonder why it's not 100%. This makes it look like understanding your enemy is a wrong thing to do. Everyone can understand the motives of your opponents, no? You don't agree with them, but you can understand them. I'd understand why someone would want to shoot me if I am substantially richer than him. You know envy is a good motive. Does this mean anything? No.

i dunno. If I say to you i "understand" why Baruch Goldstein chose to massacre 30 muslim arabs in Hebron, would you think im merely making a statement about causality, or would you suspect me of something beyond that? we often say that violence is incomprehensible - now for those of us who believe that everything on earth has a cause, that cant be literally true. But it still means something to call an act "incomprehensible" - and to deny its incomprehensibility, is less like an assertion of analytic powers, than a denial of what we really mean when we call something "incomrehensible"

	04-08-2005 22:22									#102
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I am sorry, but I didn't get the last sentence. Maybe you can rephrase?

It's true that understand has an agreeing undertone, but well in this case I think it's more showing off sensitive abilities.
I mean, if a politician says he cannot understand why something happened and this oh-so incomprehensible incidents, in my eyes he already lost, as he is totally clueless or speaking empty phrases. None of which are words of comfort.

	04-08-2005 22:29									#103
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it depends on whos speaking, to whom.


If youre shooting at me, and I say I understand why, the natural assumption is that im trying to analyze the situation, not expressing sympathy. If my brother is shooting at you, and i say I understand why, you might well interpret it as sympathy. If I really dont sympathize, i would probably call the shooting incomprehensible, just so you dont take it the wrong way.

	05-08-2005 14:54									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark molly, IIUC, in Northern Ireland religion is largely a marker of ethnicity. The IRA leaders are leaders are largely secularists. While the right wing protestant leaders may not be, the motivations driving their followers are ethnic and nationalist - much as many of the supporters of Hamas are driven, so it is said, by nationalist concerns, not religious ones. After all, theyre trying to stay in the United Kingdom, which isnt exactly a hardline Protestant country.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the religiously inspired ramblings of the 'Revd.' Ian Paisley.

quote: The Pope is the Antichrist A Demonstration from Scripture, history, and his own lips. Being a Precis of Dr. J. A. Wylie's Classic, "The Papacy is the Antichrist" By Ian R. K. Paisley M.P., M.E.P. It should be emphasised that Vatican Council Two reaffirmed no departure by the church from the decrees of the Council of Trent. Rome’s curses stand! The Infallible Antichrist has decreed them! Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley In the thirteenth chapter of Revelation and verse thirteen we read of the lamb-like beast which sponsors the worship of the beast, in these words: ‘And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from the heaven on the earth in the sight of men.’ Rev. 13:13. Notice that this beast does the work which is identified with the whole priestly caste of the Roman system. This prophecy is strikingly fulfilled in the papal interdicts and excommunications originating in the Antichrist and propagated by his emissaries the priests of Rome. ' The same line of proof which establishes that Christ is the promised Messiah, conversely applied, establishes that the Roman system is the predicted Apostasy. In the life of Christ we behold the CONVERSE of what Antichrist must be; and in the prophecy of the Antichrist we are shown the CONVERSE of what Christ must be and was. And when we place the Papacy between the two, and compare it with each, we find on the one hand, that it is the perfect CONVERSE of Christ as seen in His life; and on the other, that it is the perfect image of the Antichrist, as shown in the prophecy of him. WE CONCLUDE, THEREFORE, THAT IF JESUS OF NAZARETH BE THE CHRIST, THE ROMAN PAPACY IS THE ANTICHRIST.' — Dr. J. A. Wylie

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp


It is utterly pointless trying to portray either side as being only or mainly secular or nationalist or unionist rather than being religiously inspired, especially if one is attempting to say that Islamic terrorism is only religiously inspired.

In Northern Ireland the religious divide fuels the conflict- and geopolitics in the Muslim world fuels Islamic terrorism.

As for trying to stay in the U.K.- yes of course Unionists are. The same United Kingdom which still has an Act of Parliament disbarring any member of the Royal family from inheriting the throne if he or she marries a Catholic or converts to Catholicism.

These things die a long lingering death.

	10-08-2005 05:13									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove They were stamped out in the Hapsburg domains, then driven out of Poland,

The only religious group ever expelled from Poland were the Polish brother (anti-trinitaries) after Swedish Flood.

quote: In the Koran it is said that the Greater Jihad is a man's struggle to purify his won soul. The struggle to spread the word is considered secondary and was termed the Lesser Jihad by Mohammed. Islam needs a great religious leader, perhaps a Sufi, to rise and call the people away from the corrupting influence of violent causes. To do so he will have to prove to the people that the current trend of suicide martyrdom is at odds with the Prophet's teachings. I suspect that a major internicene Islamic war will be required before this is possible.

What You've written has little to do with what I did.

	10-08-2005 07:51									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Next time you religion-bash, think to yourself : Have I invented democracy?

Some dead Greek doofus.

quote: Purged the world of barbarians?

Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson made a good start.

quote: Created a linguistic foundation for the rest of time?

Some dead Phoenician doofus. Or some dead Homo erectus.

quote: Finished high school?!

Yes.

	10-08-2005 08:00									#107
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Question: How many British non-Muslims support the London bombings?

I wouldn't be suprised if you could muster at least 1% up. There are always ignorant idiots with no power or influence around.

	10-08-2005 08:55									#108
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Sure you could, but not in a RANDOM SAMPLE.

If 6 in every 100 muslims wants to blow us all up, I'd say we have a BIG BIG problem, much worse than the Japanese in WW2.

If 24 in 100 sympathize, we are bordering on needing deportation and show trials.

	10-08-2005 13:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified. Typical torygraph crap. The wording of the statement was: "Q: Do you think the bombing attacks in London on July 7 were justified or not? A: On balance justified - 6% A: On balance not justified - 11% A: Not at all justified - 77% Don’t know 6%" This does indicate a sympathy for the terrorists, but it doesn't mean that 6% of Britain's Muslims will be willing to kill Brits for Islam's cause. Two other questions can shed some light on this result: "How loyal would you say you personally feel towards Britain? A: Very loyal - 46% A: Fairly loyal - 33% A: Not very loyal - 6% A: Not at all loyal - 10% Don't know 4%" "Which of these views comes closest to your own? A: ‘Western society is decadent and immoral, and Muslims should seek to bring it to an end, if necessary by violence’ - 1% A: ‘Western society is decadent and immoral, and Muslims should seek to bring it to an end, but only by NON-VIOLENT means’ - 31% A: ‘Western society may not be perfect, but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end’ - 56% Don’t know 11%" This means that 10% of the respondents feel no loyalty at all for Britain. A significant chunk are probably people who feel completely alienated by the British society. It's no surprise, then, that a part of these people justify an attack on a society they despise. OTOH, those who actually think that Muslims should destroy the decadent west are ONE percent. There are thity times more people who do think that the west is decadent, but that only non-violent means should be used against it. So much for Islam as an inherently violent religion. Source

If 1 in 3 muslims in Britain want to bring western society to an end, then it's clear that Britain needs a reduction in their Islamic population of 1/3. If this is too sticky to pull off immediately, then I suggest refraining from letting any more into the country and shunning / boycotting those who espouse such hatred for the society they live in. Let them pick an Islamic paradise to live in if they feel that way.

	10-08-2005 13:46									#110
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Sikander

	10-08-2005 16:01									#111
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quote: So a scientific poll of Christians today would show 6% support murder? Is that what you are maintaining??

So what do you say to those who believe that nuking Mecca is a rational and justified response to terrorism?

	10-08-2005 16:40									#112
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quote: If 1 in 3 muslims in Britain want to bring western society to an end, then it's clear that Britain needs a reduction in their Islamic population of 1/3. If this is too sticky to pull off immediately, then I suggest refraining from letting any more into the country and shunning / boycotting those who espouse such hatred for the society they live in. Let them pick an Islamic paradise to live in if they feel that way.

Yes, let's deport everyone who thinks Western society is decadent and immoral; there goes 3/4 of the Republican Party (and a good fraction of the conservative Dems).

	10-08-2005 17:01									#113
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They are part of Western Society. Those Muslims who think of West as decadent and immoral do not feel part of it.

	10-08-2005 17:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The only religious group ever expelled from Poland were the Polish brother (anti-trinitaries) after Swedish Flood.

You're misinformed. The Moravians were a "utopian" like group. They preferred to live in villages entirley of their own believers. After their expulsion from Poland, Germany and the Hapsburg domains they moved to North Carolina eventually, where their original town has been preserved. There is also a memorial which has a map of the location of where their villages had been in Europe. Quite a number of them were clearly located in Poland. I don't know what name their group was given in Poland. In the US today they're know as the Church of the Bretheren. Could we be speaking of the same group?

quote: What You've written has little to do with what I did.

Didn't you ask what sort of reform would be needed to counteract the radical Jihadists? I thought that I was pretty clear.

	10-08-2005 17:14									#115
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quote: They are part of Western Society. Those Muslims who think of West as decadent and immoral do not feel part of it.

That's certainly false, since only 10% of British Muslims don't considerd themselves at all loyal to Britain. 10% is significantly smaller than 31%.

	10-08-2005 17:17									#116
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yes, but can you really claim to be loyal to something if you despise what it stands for?

	10-08-2005 17:24									#117
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You can despise some things about society, and not despise other things. For instance, I think that there are some pretty damn immoral things in our society (like, say, capitalism ). That doesn't mean I don't consider myself an American.

	10-08-2005 17:51									#118
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Indeed... Az, I thought you would understand that some people can despise their government/society and still consider themselves part of the community. That describes a decent number of Communists/Socialists in Western capitalist society.

	10-08-2005 19:07									#119
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quote: You can despise some things about society, and not despise other things. For instance, I think that there are some pretty damn immoral things in our society (like, say, capitalism ). That doesn't mean I don't consider myself an American.

Yes, but do you consider, generally, America to be ethically positive or negative? If you think that america, on the whole is immoral, you're not loyal to it.

quote: Indeed... Az, I thought you would understand that some people can despise their government/society and still consider themselves part of the community. That describes a decent number of Communists/Socialists in Western capitalist society.

They're parts of that society, in the sense that they talk and interact, and hold relatioships, sure, but I don't think they're LOYAL to their societies.

	10-08-2005 19:12									#120
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loyalty being defined as a sense of obligation before someone, due to one's beliefs and convictions.