19-09-2005 18:41									#211
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quote: When the demo switched to a resource-trade, you could only haggle with resources and cash.

that's probably because people were cheating the ai promising gpt or resources for techs and then breaking the agreements...

	19-09-2005 18:45									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Freddz Too much work with so many civs. Too bad.

meanwhile tons of people are for years demanding to be able to play against 12, 16, 20 civs...

	19-09-2005 19:36									#213
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG meanwhile tons of people are for years demanding to be able to play against 12, 16, 20 civs...

Meh, single players.

Only multi is beautiful.

	19-09-2005 19:41									#214
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Heathen talk...

	19-09-2005 19:52									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Greatest fears: - One on one unit combat instead of grouped and combined arms style combat like we saw in CTP2. That alone would releave much of the tediousness and micromangement from the game. Of course because it makes so much sense they likely won't do it. - A dumbed down game designed to attract 9 year olds so that people of average intelligence become bored after the first game. - promised features don't get delivered. - A buggy and under developed MP which is unstable and crashes all the time. - An AI which really isn't all that good. It would have to be significantly better then Civ3's simplistic "AI gains up on human" AI.

Besides your first point (ctp style combat), which we know isn't in civ4, so no need to go on about it.

Ketchup or mustard?

	19-09-2005 21:08									#216
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What I fear is that many players will invest lots of time and energy early on in writing strategy articles on sites like this which soon become redundant as the game is subsequently tweaked. They will be reluctant to re-write their articles for every patch, so the vast repositories of wisdom become redundant, which is a great shame.

If there is a decently balanced game 'out of the box' (wishful thinking, some would say) perhaps this can be avoided.

Another fear is that there will never be a satisfied user-base, as different playstyles prefer different rules. Take resource scarcity in C3C. Wargamers loved it, as it gave more meaning to their campaigns and also tended to produce killer AI's (fun for fighting against). Builders were less keen as it often became impossible to get the resources they needed to compete, and small AI's were invariably crushed by larger ones, unbalancing the game from that POV.

Of course, anyone can mod in their own rules. but comparing strategies requires the same rules, which is why many of us like to play with a standard set.

	19-09-2005 21:12									#217
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG meanwhile tons of people are for years demanding to be able to play against 12, 16, 20 civs...

Well, not all the time...

	19-09-2005 21:24									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus What I fear is that many players will invest lots of time and energy early on in writing strategy articles on sites like this which soon become redundant as the game is subsequently tweaked. They will be reluctant to re-write their articles for every patch, so the vast repositories of wisdom become redundant, which is a great shame.

This need not be the case. Avid fans could take it upon themselves to perform some sort of curation of strategy articles (plus nuggets of wisdom found in random posts). I believe that this was done for Civ2 with the Great Library project (never used it, so I'm not really sure). In any case, such a project would better off starting sooner than later. Would it make sense for AU to take on this responsibility?

quote: Another fear is that there will never be a satisfied user-base, as different playstyles prefer different rules. Take resource scarcity in C3C. Wargamers loved it, as it gave more meaning to their campaigns and also tended to produce killer AI's (fun for fighting against). Builders were less keen as it often became impossible to get the resources they needed to compete, and small AI's were invariably crushed by larger ones, unbalancing the game from that POV.

Actually I think that customization options serve to satisfy the player base. What you're referring to, rather, is the absence of strategic options for various player "types" in the standard game.

To what extent customization will be required to keep players "happy" remains to be seen. I'm guessing "not a lot", at least within the first year after release (of course, there will always be those players that hate such-and-such right out of the box, but they are in the minority). Remember that when C3C came out, you had been playing Civ3 for over two years already...

	19-09-2005 21:29									#219
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG meanwhile tons of people are for years demanding to be able to play against 12, 16, 20 civs...

Sigh. Yes, not all of them understand what they are sacrificing by making that demand. Quantity definately isn't quality, and never has been. Then the same persons go on and play with 8-12 civs in their game anyway after trying 313 civs once or twice because it sounds cool and then finding that the flavour has gone off a little as every civ becomes more anonymous... It's not that feeling of hating another civ anymore... those damn russions or french or whatever.
It would have been better to expand the number of civs in an expansion in my most humble opinion. Great unique civs makes for a lot more replayability than 20-30 grey civs.
I'll wager when they make SMAC 2 (if they will) then the large public will scream for 20-30 different factions, mainly because it is not clear what the option of a lesser number of factions would mean for diplomacy, personalities, unique traits and unique strategies. It has always been like that. So, so what?

	19-09-2005 22:07									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae This need not be the case. Avid fans could take it upon themselves to perform some sort of curation of strategy articles (plus nuggets of wisdom found in random posts). I believe that this was done for Civ2 with the Great Library project (never used it, so I'm not really sure). In any case, such a project would better off starting sooner than later. Would it make sense for AU to take on this responsibility?

Yes!

That would be excellent, and as you say, the sooner this can be planned the better. I remember, for example, some great Civ 3 articles which were written at a time when cash to buy AI tech, not research, was most valuable at the start of the game. This got changed and the strat opening was redundant. A 'Strat Tzar' could encourage individuals to update their work, and maintain the central repository for the accumulated wisdom. Up-to-date contributers get to keep their name in lights, so to speak.

quote: What you're referring to, rather, is the absence of strategic options for various player "types" in the standard game.

Good definition.

	20-09-2005 17:57									#221
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My nonworst fear are more gay-looking leaderheads. I'm specifically thinking of Hannibal from Civ 3 when he's smiling. Firaxis could very easily have chosen a better image than that.

My worst fear is that Civ 4 will simply be the same game as before with nicer graphics, like many, many other sequels are. However, after looking at the screenshots, it seems apparent that it's more than just the same game with nicer screenshots. But we'll see when we actually play it.

	20-09-2005 18:15									#222
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@ Vomitus. If the screenshot I saw earlier today of the City Management screen is anything to go by, then I doubt that Civ4 will be anything much like Civ3 at all. I looked at that screen, on and off, for over an hour-and I still have heaps of unanswered questions about what a lot of the info there means. This was NOT a problem I had when transitioning from Civ2 to Civ3.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	20-09-2005 19:40									#223
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quote: @The_Aussie_Lurker: This was NOT a problem I had when transitioning from Civ2 to Civ3

You call that a problem? I'd rather define it as a pleasure

	21-09-2005 02:17									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Freddz Sigh. Yes, not all of them understand what they are sacrificing by making that demand. Quantity definately isn't quality, and never has been. Then the same persons go on and play with 8-12 civs in their game anyway after trying 313 civs once or twice because it sounds cool and then finding that the flavour has gone off a little as every civ becomes more anonymous...

Making many "unique still balanced" Civ is a big effort. I'm not sure it'll become any easier if you add more Civ later, because you must rebalance the whole group and you'll probably end retuning many original trait just for the sake of make some room for the new entry Civ. In real life is not easy to define whole nations by a few labels, if not for pub joke purpose. You don't care to try 32 different Civ if the whole tactic and strategy is the same but for few (hence unbalanced) civs.

quote: Originally posted by Freddz It would have been better to expand the number of civs in an expansion in my most humble opinion. Great unique civs makes for a lot more replayability than 20-30 grey civs.

Hmmm, only because different way to win the game can depend from unique trait, IMHO. You can gain similar effect playing with different start position, resource distribution and so on. Some concept are easier than carefully modelling different civ: as you mentioned in others points of your post.

quote: Originally posted by Freddz I'll wager when they make SMAC 2 (if they will) then the large public will scream for 20-30 different factions, mainly because it is not clear what the option of a lesser number of factions would mean for diplomacy, personalities, unique traits and unique strategies. It has always been like that. So, so what?

Can Firaxis offer a different target than "more, more, more factions, units, maps" when the most common expansion theme is "more, more, more factions, units, maps"?
BTW, I agree SMAC is not epic because of a large number of Civ, but for the whole effort of rebuilding mankind on a different, hostile world. I hope SMAC 2 will expand this concept, and I'm confident most of fans will support this approach.

	21-09-2005 06:05									#225
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my "worst" fear is that if the game sucks the beta testers won't reveal themselves to take their punishment

worst, no, but the more scapegoats the merrier.

	21-09-2005 12:20									#226
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my worst fear is that yin wont eat his box

	21-09-2005 12:38									#227
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My worst fear is that I will spend about $1,000 on a new computer system (with 19" monitor) for civ4 ...
and within a few months I lose interest in the game. Then I try a few other games such as Rome: Total War and can't maintain interest in them either.

OTOH, civ4 could be the BEST (until civ5)!

Mark, if that's your worst fear, you ARE fearless!

	21-09-2005 13:06									#228
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG my worst fear is that yin wont eat his box

Yin worst fear probably is eating the box *and* liking it!

Our worst fear should be to install the game, try it a few days, then spontaneously *eat the whole box and the disc* out of pure angry.

	21-09-2005 13:12									#229
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my other fear is that there wont be anyone else helping out on the cost of yin's box

	21-09-2005 13:14									#230
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btw amazon now has the dimensions of what yin will eat

quote: originally posted by Amazon 7.50 inches x 5.50 inches x 1.25 inches

	21-09-2005 15:17									#232
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what, are you ready to change your statement?

	21-09-2005 15:55									#233
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Actually, didn't we used to have a puke icon? This was the closest I could get!

	21-09-2005 16:51									#234
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we never had a puke smiley

so, should i start the fund raising effort?

	22-09-2005 02:05									#235
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Let's see Yin26 eating the box, probably he will suffer a karmik mutation, and he will become SHE : Yang62, a pretty, quiet, black old lady that loves playing civilization IV and making pancakes for their 30 nephews and travelling in summer to Thessaloniki, Greece, spending in hours watching the people swimming in the Thermaikos. Probably she will fall in love, and become married, with a greek middle-age guy with long black hair and joining the anti-FYROM political party.

Ok... 3 red bulls are too much in 3 hours.

Returning to topic : my worst fear is that SM Civilization IV will have the SM no for Sid Meier but Steve Mariotti , known by develop buggy games made with cut-paste codes from other games.

Oh, again, well, just forget that I posted that

Last edited by jomateix on 22-09-2005 at 02:17

	22-09-2005 02:36									#236
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Yin, think about it - you may get to eat the box, but you'll also get the game free when it's released. I don't think many Apolytoners are going to get Civ4 for free!

	22-09-2005 04:50									#237
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O.K. Serious question after 3 martinis: Can the ink on the Civ box kill me? And if it does, how will Apolyton ever know? It's a sad, lonely question, but maybe I deserve it...?

	22-09-2005 05:14									#238
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 O.K. Serious question after 3 martinis: Can the ink on the Civ box kill me? And if it does, how will Apolyton ever know? It's a sad, lonely question, but maybe I deserve it...?

The ink on McDonalds packaging has never harmed anybody.

The contents being a slightly different matter of course.


[Edit: My greatest worry about Civ4 is that they'll completely stuff up the events engine. Or simply not bother putting it in. Again.

	22-09-2005 05:15									#239
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You're a good man, ravagon. I'll (maybe) eat the box but will leave the CD alone. Got it.

	22-09-2005 18:05									#240
	Don't Do This At Your Home. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yin26 You're a good man, ravagon. I'll (maybe) eat the box but will leave the CD alone. Got it.

Ehi, is there a doctor in the forum? We need professional advice here, or we'll be sued by Yin parents!

Yin, I suppose anyone here can let you peel off and throw away the first layer (the printed one) from the cardboard. Eat the cardboard in small part and keep someone handy with a phone ready for a 911 call.
(BTW, if you take a movie of this special meal I bet your movie and name will be around the Net in days, ranked just below the last Paris Hilton piece of art )

I also suggest MarkG or DanQ to add this disclaimer to any thread related to this bet:
"Warning for Children on this forum: Don't Do This At Your Home."