14-09-2005 02:46									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My worst fear? The AI sucks because they worried about Multiplayer because of all the MP whiners.

The AI will fail to be a match for a competent player without cheating anyway! Better a MP whiner than someone who only thinks they can play Civ any day.

	14-09-2005 02:59									#182
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Actually, most customers of Civ4 will still be SP only. So the AI needs to present something of a challenge. At least, to the average consumer who hasn't yet read up on every spec of strategy off of Apolyton.

It would really make Firaxis's productive life a lot easier if they didn't have to bother with any AI, and just let the game by purely MP. That's a lot easier to do then what they are doing now.

Oh well, just a few more weeks until we can see what the first release of CIV plays like.

	14-09-2005 03:01									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro The AI will fail to be a match for a competent player without cheating anyway! Better a MP whiner than someone who only thinks they can play Civ any day.

MP in Civ is blasphemy

it's just wrong

I have never played a MP game of Civ... nor will I, nor have I any desire to.

I only wish I had enough money to buy Firaxis... then I would get rid of multiplayer altogether.

	14-09-2005 03:31									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Sava MP in Civ is blasphemy it's just wrong I have never played a MP game of Civ... nor will I, nor have I any desire to. I only wish I had enough money to buy Firaxis... then I would get rid of multiplayer altogether.

Even when its single player, Civ is supposed to emulate what is inherently a multiplayer game.

I'm glad people like you don't run the industry as these days my only enjoyment in games comes from the multiplayer modes.

On the other hand, who am I to say that it is wrong that people should find the limited, crippled form of the game available through single player to be enjoyable.

	14-09-2005 03:45									#185
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Sava, I do partially share your thoughts, I also greatly prefer SP to MP, but it's just wrong to feel THAT strongly without ever trying MP. Give it a try someday. Just to see how it really is, if for nothing else. I have played MP, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but at the same time, I understood that I still prefer SP.

	14-09-2005 04:10									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Sava, I do partially share your thoughts, I also greatly prefer SP to MP, but it's just wrong to feel THAT strongly without ever trying MP. Give it a try someday. Just to see how it really is, if for nothing else. I have played MP, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but at the same time, I understood that I still prefer SP.

eh? I don't need to stick my hand in a blender to know I wouldn't enjoy that.

The only way MP would be even remotely fun is if I were on a LAN with a bunch of people.

Senethro: and don't misunderstand me... I'm not anti-multiplayer in games... I love multiplayer. I play games like Counter-Strike and Battlefield 2 exclusively multiplayer. But a turn-based strategy game is not condusive to an enjoyable multiplayer experience. Especially a game like Civilization.

Civ is a time consuming game. Especially during later stages of the game. Who the hell wants to sit around for hours on end just waiting for your turn to come around?

The only way a Civ multiplayer experience would be worth it is if there are no AI's at all. That would mean maybe 8 human players in a game. I'm sorry, but that is just a recipe for disaster.

And quite frankly, any time Firaxis is spending on multiplayer, is time they could be spending making a better AI. That's why I would get rid of it.

	14-09-2005 04:19									#187
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And what do you think of PBEM? It has the same strategic nature of Civ, and maybe is even more strategic than the average games. The drawback is the extremely long time it takes for a game, but I find PBEM to be a rather interesting option. I myself don't enjoy 3-4 hour online MP games that much, although they can be fun for a change to me.

And not all the time spent on multiplayer is wasted time AI-wise . I'm pretty sure Firaxis has a separate network programmer who is working on most of the multiplayer code.

	14-09-2005 04:36									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Solver And what do you think of PBEM? It has the same strategic nature of Civ, and maybe is even more strategic than the average games. The drawback is the extremely long time it takes for a game, but I find PBEM to be a rather interesting option. I myself don't enjoy 3-4 hour online MP games that much, although they can be fun for a change to me.

never tried it... but honestly, I don't think I would... the best part I like about Civ is waking up in the morning, getting a big jug of coffee and playing for like 4-5 hours straight not getting up until I have to pee really really really bad!

I like to get a game going and play for long stretches at a time. And hopefully, try to finish a game within a week or so.

Also, in regards to MP, one of the things I like best about Civ is my own personal mods. It's very difficult to get people to play MP with you and your own custom mods.

Sure, the AI is not as smart as a human player. But that's part of the fun.

Personally, I don't want the game to keep me on the edge of my seat constantly planning out every single move (and planning a hundred steps ahead) because I'm playing against some uber-l337 civ-nerd. Or worse, playing against some dumb n00b. That's usually the way multiplayer in games is. Either you play someone vastly superior to you, or someone vastly inferior.

I like just sitting back and building an empire against a lot of AI. I make my own personal mods to balance out the AI's flaws.

quote: And not all the time spent on multiplayer is wasted time AI-wise . I'm pretty sure Firaxis has a separate network programmer who is working on most of the multiplayer code.

But still... Firaxis has only so much money to spend on development. The salary they are paying the network code guy is money they could be paying another AI programmer.

I'm not saying that multiplayer NEEDS to be eradicated... I'm saying that my worst fear is that the AI will suck because of the extra attention being paid to multiplayer development. That's all.

	14-09-2005 04:52									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I only wish I had enough money to buy Firaxis... then I would get rid of multiplayer altogether.

	14-09-2005 04:53									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Sava never tried it... but honestly, I don't think I would... the best part I like about Civ is waking up in the morning, getting a big jug of coffee and playing for like 4-5 hours straight not getting up until I have to pee really really really bad!

This is the bit that always puzzles me, people saying they have no time for MP.

quote: Sure, the AI is not as smart as a human player. But that's part of the fun.

Do you also enjoy 100ms sprints against quadruple amputees with iron prosthetics on a magnetic track?

quote: Personally, I don't want the game to keep me on the edge of my seat constantly planning out every single move (and planning a hundred steps ahead) because I'm playing against some uber-l337 civ-nerd. Or worse, playing against some dumb n00b. That's usually the way multiplayer in games is. Either you play someone vastly superior to you, or someone vastly inferior.

Too late, you're talking about a computer game on the internet, nerd. The resentment of the leet is a characteristic of the mediocre.

quote: I like just sitting back and building an empire against a lot of AI. I make my own personal mods to balance out the AI's flaws. But still... Firaxis has only so much money to spend on development. The salary they are paying the network code guy is money they could be paying another AI programmer.

They don't need a programmer, they need someone to invent a whole new way of explaining game concepts to the AI in ways they can evaluate better.

quote: I'm not saying that multiplayer NEEDS to be eradicated... I'm saying that my worst fear is that the AI will suck because of the extra attention being paid to multiplayer development. That's all.

As the AI cannot not suck ( does that even make sense?) I doubt that Firaxis would get much better results from more resources put into working on AI. As it is, I'm sure the AI will be adaquate for giving you your power trips.

	14-09-2005 16:06									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai You know that ain't going to happen.

Yeah, thanks God for it !

It's still my worst fear for the civ franchise ... nah, that won't happen

	14-09-2005 23:21									#192
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so Sava have you bothered to try the simultaneous moves option in mp?

might make a differnce

If you condem after tryin, at least you tried

PBEM is the mp for me

	14-09-2005 23:48									#193
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I had not much hope for Civ 3. But after a few months of tedium I bought it. I was right not to have the hopes. The game was monotone.
But, pessimist as I can be, I have pretty high hopes for Civ 4. They have introduced some new concepts, and I like them. A small scale revolution just as I like it.
I really like the unit promotions. I really like the Great people. I really really like religion. I like that they want to promote building more as I'm a builder fan. I hope the end game won't be so tedious as before (they say it won't).

Two concerns. First:
I would want an earth map where the civs start at the right locations that come with the box. I heard such a map won't be there. So I'll hope for a really good MOD as I like the Earth maps. But on such a MOD it would be TERRIBLE if starting locations would have to be random and for example the egyptians would have to start in Moscow and so on. TERRIBLE. Yuk. Hope one can place static locations and start the game without tinkering in the files.

Second:
I hope the AI personalities are well developed where one gets a good feel for each one. Remember SMAC? Great personalities there. They took the entire game to a whole new level. Civ 3 had ZERO personalities.
To the point: I would have preferred a lesser number of civs in Civ 4 (say 12) and more time in making extra special units and polishing dialogue and polishing special tactics employed by each civ, as I have a feeling the civs may not be as polished as I would wish. But that would of course have been more time-consuming as some Civs have two leaders. But as I come to expect this small failure from Firaxis, it won't be a terrible disappointment either. I just hope they keep their heads above the water level I set.
Hi guys, btw.

Last edited by Freddz on 15-09-2005 at 00:12

	15-09-2005 06:12									#194
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Actually, I have it on good authority that there is an Earth map out of the box, and that it is being developed by Rhye-the creator of the Rhyes of Civilization mod for civ3. That definitely gives me hope regarding how good the Earth map will be !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	15-09-2005 06:21									#195
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Thats a good ponit Freddz. I have yet to play any game with diplomacy to match SMAC,s.
Personalities would draw you in.
Diplomacy is the cornerstone of any Civ game . If Civ4 lacks here it will be like playing Empire Earth.

	16-09-2005 02:17									#196
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How is cIV going to have personality? SMAC had so much personality because it only had the seven factions. That allowed Firaxis to do a lot of customization, which is what gives the game so much of the personality. Having the Voice Actors doing a lot of the voice overs in the Tech Advances and Project Movies, for instance, really help give you a good bit of flavor. Having Yang give you a call and ask you to join him in an alliance to crush that crazed Gian who spends most of her time running naked in the park and randomly hugging trees really spark up the flavor of the game.

How many civilizations will cIV include? Think about it. Firaxis will not be able to even approach that level of immersion and character that SMAC had. Remove all that SMAC personalition from SMAC, and you just end up with standard Civ diplomacy. "Wage War on the Purple!" "Let's trade my tech X for your tech Y" "How about exchanging world maps?" yadda yadda blah.

Civ's personality comes from you getting involved in what you are doing in the game (being a unit pusher and tech/city planner). Don't expect anything more then that from the actual game play.

Of course, the advisors and reward structure (throne room/castle/etc) will be spots that we can get some actual personality. But it won't be like SMAC.

That doesn't mean cIV will suck. But it be a lot more like Empire Earth and very little like SMAC in flavor and personality. That's the nature of Civ itself.

	16-09-2005 03:02									#197
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DS,

Exactly my point. Too much work with so many civs. Too bad. But I hope Firaxis hasn't adopted your pessimistic view though - you probably think it's the only a realistic view - as that view would certainly spell doom for diplomacy and personalities. It's all a matter of spending time with it I guess, and with so many civs it's bound to limit the efferts some.
But are factions soooo much different from nations? Yes, you could go a little bit more nuts with the personalities in SMAC, but that doesn't mean you could do a whole lot with Civ IV and find fun and interesting nuances. I guess I'm just hoping they've done something so you'd get some feel of them, with some funny/mood-giving comments.



Hey, The_Aussie_Lurker, that sounds very nice!

	16-09-2005 03:13									#198
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How are they going to do more in Diplomacy then what they've already done? Other then maybe you trading boundry/tiles, anyways? There's serious possibilities in the Civ3 game. Just not the high flavor of SMAC.

The game should have lots of diplomatic possibilities. But it just won't have flavor. If they drop all those civs to just 8 only, then Firaxis could spend time tailoring the game to give you some serious flavor. But with what? 32? 64? Not going to happen.

That doesn't mean that you will have just AI 1-32. You will know that the Zulus are complete war addicts, while the English only war when they run out of land. So you'll have a touch of it. Just a tiny sprinkly (because the AI itself acts slightly differently). Now, if all AI play identically (no more Pacifist versus Warlike mods), then the game would be completely tasteless.

	16-09-2005 06:27									#199
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For me, there will never be another immersive gaming experience like SMAC. It's been out how many years and yet I still play nearly every day and never play C3C.

Even Civ1 stirred up stronger emotions than Civ3.
Damn those White's!!! (Romans and Russians) Stop attacking me! There will be peace in our time...after I crush you!

My biggest fear....Firaxis will spend all its time and energy making worthless 3-D units (when 2-D would serve just as well) fight on a fake 3-D map (that's still has no polar region) and forget about programming in any fun or useful strategy.

Oh and yeah, NO MORE DUMBING DOWN like in Civ3

	18-09-2005 00:37									#200
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AoA,

I totally agree. I loved it when the russians were attacked me all the time in civ 1. I t was very stressing because they very soon roamed over the entire map. They were very aggressive.
I just picked up SMAC again on my old computer and am having great fun. It's a bit tedious toward the end game because of all the units, and we're only three civs left (small map).
It's me, Mirjam and LAL.
What strikes me is also how aggressive the Diplomacy is with the AI. They make sure to point out whenever you do something or have a government they don't like, making the game a bit more stressful even when you're friends with them, as they're implying they have to show patience with you. Fun. Fun.
But a bit tedious towards the end as i said. Always thought that. Playing the Gaians makes it less tedious as I go for the worms a lot (so making units is not truly time consuming)

DS,

Well, I guess we have pretty much the same view about things.

Freddz out

	18-09-2005 02:32									#201
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the more I read on religon the more I am getting to dislike it.

Hope there is a way to keep missionaires out

Then there is the culture bombing, why build a great person to go into suicide mode. If you are powerfull enough to build one, there are better avenues to persue

	18-09-2005 03:36									#202
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AFAIK you don't "build" great people, you earn them

	18-09-2005 04:28									#203
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buy "building" certain items

sorry for the general term

	18-09-2005 10:19									#204
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To be fair though, Platypus, you need to do a lot of city specialisation and wonder/improvement building in order to create a Great Artist (the only people capable of doing a 'culture bomb'.) So I doubt such a tactic can be done very often-especially when you consider the fact that GA can also be important for initiating Golden Ages, as well as being attached to a city for a long-term benefit. This means that a player will really have to think long and hard about how he makes use of Great People such as Great Artists-sacrifice for a short-term gain, or retain him/her for a longer-term benefit. Its all Swings and Roundabouts Platypus.
As for religion and missionaries, I think the fact that converted cities gain money for the nation controlling said Holy City is one of the best ways for smaller nations to achieve economic strength. Also, we already know that closed borders can keep out missionaries (and spies, I believe). Lastly, I would say that the benefits you recieve from your religion will depend on what civic you have chosen-and the greatest benefits will probably be outweighed by detriments in other areas. Hope that helps to ease some of your concerns.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	18-09-2005 10:46									#205
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In a short MP game using a GPerson for short-term gain is a no-brainer, as portrayed in the recent MP game reviews. Not that that will concern ME -- I'm SP only.

	18-09-2005 10:47									#206
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Greatest fears:

- One on one unit combat instead of grouped and combined arms style combat like we saw in CTP2. That alone would releave much of the tediousness and micromangement from the game. Of course because it makes so much sense they likely won't do it.

- A dumbed down game designed to attract 9 year olds so that people of average intelligence become bored after the first game.

- promised features don't get delivered.

- A buggy and under developed MP which is unstable and crashes all the time.

- An AI which really isn't all that good. It would have to be significantly better then Civ3's simplistic "AI gains up on human" AI.

	18-09-2005 12:03									#207
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Well, Oerdin, I doubt very much that you have anything to fear regarding the last 2 points at least. They have, after all, had Multiplayer up and running almost since the very start of development, and the previews we have read on MP certainly put paid to any fears I might have had (in fact, I am considering doing MP for the first time ever!!) Also, they have been using MP experiences as a guide for developing the AI-meaning that many AI strategies may well be based on-or be a response to-some of the most seasoned human Civ players around.

As for the other stuff, well I can 'wait and see' with those.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	19-09-2005 14:54									#208
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My worst fears are those of an incompetent Sp AI. It would make it a worse time-waster for me.

Is it true that combat is redone with only one combat value? I've always wanted that - it felt weird that a phalanx is such a useless attacker, while a potent defender (especially in field battles, where I believe even the defender has to maneuver some)

	19-09-2005 15:13									#209
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Well, to answer your question specifically-YES there is a single Combat value for units now. However, some units will get a bonus/penalty to this value based on the unit they are attacking/defending against and/or the terrain in which they are fighting.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	19-09-2005 18:23									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor My worst fear is with diplomacy. From the diplomatic screens we saw, it seems that you can "trade anything for anything" like you could in SMAC or Civ3. When the demo showed a tech-trade being initiated, you could only haggle with techs and cash. When the demo switched to a resource-trade, you could only haggle with resources and cash. I really hope it was a glitch in the demo, and not a feature. The diplomatic complexity was one of the best thing in SMAC and Civ3, and I really don't want a step back to Civ1&2

This would be a sing that the AI sucks so they're trying to limit trades to prevent people from taking advantage of the weak AI.