05-08-2005 19:54									#1
	Three months is a long time to scratch the civ itch Increase the size of your Attachments

If you are like me, you are looking forward to civ4 for your next civesque fix. Whether it is good or bad is almost unimportant, because it is CIV. If anything, you want to at least experience it yourself and make your own judgement about the game.

Civ4 is making a lot of promises. Incredible moddability, significant changes to many game elements, working multiplay...the list goes on. Promises, in hindsight, that are much bigger than when civ3 was released.

Hope springs eternal.

The question remains though...
What to do for the next three months until it hits the shelves? Or in my case, what to do until someone gives it to me for Christmas...

I have a thought, and I am willing to bend over backwards to make it as easy as possible for two people.

Give Ages Of Man a try.

There is a local store that has 2 copies of CTP2. If they are still there today, I will pick them up. I will ship those copies to 2 players, as well as a burned CD copy of the AOM mod. There will be no charge for the copies of CTP2, AOM and no shipping charges. It will be free!!!

There is a catch though...
You have to commit to actually play the game for 500 turns at least one time, share with us here at Apolyton your impressions about AOM in an objectivel manner, and be willing to put aside preconceptions and biases of CTP2 and look at AOM based on its own merits.

And if for some reason you do not like the game, I'd ask you to mail the copies of CTP2 back to me (postage is approx $2-4) If you enjoy it, you can keep the CTP2 game - no questions asked.

Now, who will I pick???

I could simply give it to the first two people who ask, but I'd rather do this instead.

I want to give the game to people that hate the CTP series. And I want you to tell me why you hate the game in this thread. I want VERY COMPETENT AND LOYAL civ3 players who like challenges.

I will then judge whom I will send the games to, based on your posts.

Hint: If you do not like PW, stacked combat, limited rail movement, don't bother asking for the copies. AOM will not change your opinion.

I also ask that this be limited to people who do not have a copy of CTP2 too - you can download AOM from this site.

Finally, why am I posting this in the civ4 thread???

Simple - this is a forum that is full of players anticipating a new gaming experience. By their very nature, they are open to new ways of gameplay. If not, they would happily be playing civ3 until the end of time.

If civ4 was out, I would probably be playing it now, and would not be posting this offer. This is not meant to be a 'competition/comparison/which is better' game thread because we all have little idea exactly how civ4 will play (unless you are a betatester).

AOM offers a unique gaming experience that will tide you over until civ4 is released. And ultimately, that is what matters - playing and enjoying a well-created game, and I want to make it possible for the right type of person.

Of course, this all hinges on whether those two games are still at EB. I will pick them up tonight (hopefully)

DEADLINE WILL BE THIS MONDAY, AUGUST 8 - 12:00 CST US.
Have fun with this. Creatively posting your hatred might score some points with the judge - and it may not...

THE AGES OF MAN

Last edited by hexagonian on 05-08-2005 at 21:12

	05-08-2005 20:20									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hexagonian .

	05-08-2005 20:29									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well... I don't hate CtP II, but this is close enough:
The stupid game doesn't work with my Wacom tablet, no matter what I do!!!!!!!
Btw, I have a copy of CtP II, and I've already downloaded AoM, too. I just don't play the game, because of this stupid problem.


edicted:
Hexagonian, I promise: I’ll be the most addicted player of CtP+AoM if you could help me with this…

Last edited by Aro on 05-08-2005 at 21:05

	05-08-2005 21:08									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've actually been looking to pick up CTP2 again. I gave my copy away after a while of playing a few years back. Someone on the forums was looking for a copy so I just mailed him mine. But with AoM I've been looking to grab the game again.

I know I've seen it in the bargain bins here and there, but now I can not find it any of my local stores. I planned on getting a copy thru the net once they fixed some of the patch compatability issues for the mod, but just haven't decided where to get the game from.

	05-08-2005 21:23									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmm... CTP. Way too easy. Horrible map generator. Annoying Trade system (way to easy to pilliage and way too expensive to replace). Did I mention that it was way to easy?

CTPII. Again, too easy. Not as bad as CTP, but still too easy. I downloaded a Massive mod (not sure of the name, I think it was just called Massive. It made the game parameters enourmous) to see if it would be more challangeing. It wasn't. It just took longer because of the size of the map. The same player advanteges that I had before were still there except that I was able to exploit them even further catapulting me to a position of power far and away ahead of any and all AI. Still too easy.

I don't need a copy of CTPII as I already have one (I just never use it).

I would love to give your mod a try (I am a BIG fan Double your Pleasure / Rise and Rule mod for Civ III), but my experiences with the CTP series have just really set me off of it. Plus I am having my first child in October and I think my civing time will be greatly diminished (even for Civ IV) come that time. Sorry buddy. But please, keep modding. Your incredible.

BTW.... +1

	06-08-2005 00:56									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I positively loathed the CtP series as unimpressive civ knock-offs that were more focused on cramming in units/new techs/buildings/etc. than actually making a fun game. The future tech stuff was pretty horrible, I didn't like the interface at all and felt the AI was incompetent. I think I played it for about 3 days before going back to Civ II and selling my copy on ebay along with a bunch of other bad titles.

I'm now definitely into Civ3, despite it's many flaws. I feel trapped in that I can't go back to Civ II, since I'd miss too many of the features to which I've grown accustomed (borders, resources, UUs, diplo options, etc.), but at the same time lacking a really satisfying civ gaming experience.

	06-08-2005 03:07									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Have you tried smack SMAC, Boris? It's really quite addictive.

Ctp2 had plenty of good sides. it was really quite an ok game. On par with Civ3, certainly.

	06-08-2005 03:11									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Been playing the lastest playtest (update to CTP2) and im enjoying it. Something to do while waiting for Civ4.

Its to bad there was not a way to mail a check as I dont like to use credit card on the internet.
Or money order we could mail to you. Its not the price I would pay more its ID theft many have to worry about(not you ) as online pay services have been breached .

	06-08-2005 05:41									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

FYI for anybody thinking about trying AOM: It has some very clever ideas, and I suspect that we'll see some of them in Civ 4 before long. While you need to be rather hardcore to appreciate what's being attempted, it's pretty fascinating overall.

	08-08-2005 18:43									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal I would love to give your mod a try (I am a BIG fan Double your Pleasure / Rise and Rule mod for Civ III), but my experiences with the CTP series have just really set me off of it. Plus I am having my first child in October and I think my civing time will be greatly diminished (even for Civ IV) come that time.

Couple of things...
AOM is not CTP2. In fact, I approached yin26 with the same (free) offer. He decided to give it a try. When he got my copy, he first played CTP2 and his comment were the same as yours (CTP2 sucks big time) Then he gave AOM a try.

And has posted publically that AOM is very good. (and I asked him to be totally frank and honest, whether good or bad) Agree or disagree with him, but you can always count on yin26 to be blunt.

and...
Last I checked, there are two months until October, so there is a window of opportunity to at least give this a try - or at least a few evenings that normally would be invested in playing a game that has probably been played to death already.

The point of all this offer is that I fully realize that when civ4 comes out, most players will be playing that (I know I will be)

But civ4 is not out yet. And it is somewhat ironic that players are clamoring for a game to challenge them, and when something comes along that, based on reports, offers a good challenge, they do not respond to it.

	08-08-2005 19:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

After the AoM MOD came available I installed CTP2 again but it wouldn't run on my system.
It comes with a memory error.

I posted it in the initial AoM thread in the Apolyton forum (the sub-forum) but nobody knew any solutions

I'd be happy to give AoM a try, I don't need a copy of CTPII and I already downloaded the mod.
Just the !@#%( memory error

	08-08-2005 19:39									#12
	Support Apolyton

heck, i'd be willing to receive a free game and play 500 turns. probably more than that.

only thing tho is would shipping to Canada be a difficulty?

	08-08-2005 20:17									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, it's indeed important to understand that AoM is not CtP2. Some of the core basics are the same, such as stacked combat and the PW system, but AoM is a complete overhaul of the game and plays almost like an entirely new game.

	08-08-2005 21:13									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

How has the AI been doing at war? I have found that CtP2 mods would have AI more aggressive but would leave cities sometimes open for capture.
Some of the early playtests try to work on unit movement. Building a patrol force first along the border(sort of block) then moving foward when at war.
Sort of like a chess game where where the main thought is to hem in your enemy rendering him helpless . Deffense is not always passive. How does AOM use its units?

	08-08-2005 21:37									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Protra3211 How has the AI been doing at war? I have found that CtP2 mods would have AI more aggressive but would leave cities sometimes open for capture. Some of the early playtests try to work on unit movement. Building a patrol force first along the border(sort of block) then moving foward when at war. Sort of like a chess game where where the main thought is to hem in your enemy rendering him helpless . Deffense is not always passive. How does AOM use its units?

Last night I lost a city to the Romans, who had sent a fully 12-stack against my fully-loaded 12-stack defended city. (Note: I had a 25-tile wide area of no-mans land betweeen them and I - so I had been able to prepare for the incoming stacks that they occasionally sent at me with my own, but they had managed to slip through my perimeter of scouts and went undetected until they were at the doors of the city. Their units were better than mine. (Legions over phalanxes and hoplites)

I was able to retake the city three turns later - and the Romans had retrenched their remaining units in the city instead of vacating it. And there is a 7-stack that was on the way to that city, so if I had not retaken the city, they would have had a solid base to work from.

Chess is an apt description for the tactics in AOM.

	08-08-2005 21:41									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, you definitely cant roam the AI's land for long without getting attacked, and certainly no chance of finding the odd unoccupied "soft center" city.

	08-08-2005 22:23									#17
	Got spare money?

oh, i realised just now that we have to state why we hate it. its past the deadline already but:

i hate CTP2 because the box-art looked just so dang ugly that I refused to buy it.

Good enough?

	08-08-2005 23:21									#18
	Tired of ads?

OK, got the copies

Winners are...
1. Ninot (because it appears he to really want to play - shipping will not be a problem to me, but you better play the game )
2. Boris (because it appears he does not want to play, but perhaps I can break through the hard shell of his hatred for CTP2)

PM me with your mailing address info by Friday, August 12, 8AM CST USA if you want the game. I should be able to get them out in the mail - hopefully tomorrow after work if your address info comes to me before then.

If prizes are unclaimed by Friday, first runner up (Anun Ik Oba) will get first chance.

	08-08-2005 23:32									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Holy Cow! I've never won anything in my life. I'm gonna have to put a big gold star on this day in my journal.

Ok, seriously now, thanks alot Hex! I'll be PM'ing you instantly. AOM looks likes its gonna be a tun of fun.

	09-08-2005 01:57									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I'd be happy to give AoM a try, I don't need a copy of CTPII and I already downloaded the mod. Just the !@#%( memory error

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy The stupid game doesn't work with my Wacom tablet, no matter what I do!!!!!!!

I do not know what to suggest regarding these problems - I'm not familiar enough with compatibility issues between different machines. I do have CTP2 on Windows XP with no problem, but I have to remeber to have my video card on full acceleration when I play. (EU2 flickers horribly if I have it on full acceleration, so I have to manually switch it when I play that game, and sometimes I forget to turn it back)

All I can suggest is Pming Stankarp either from this site or from the official AOM forums.

	09-08-2005 03:54									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Go ahead and offer mine to Anun. Upon reflection, I'll doubt I'll have the time to play the game much and write a review that does it justice. Thanks anyway, though.

	09-08-2005 18:49									#22
	Remove this text

I hate CtP so much that I never played it

	09-08-2005 20:42									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The game had so many promises. I hated the menus and the graphics in CTP. Never could get past that. I went back to Civ2. I love Civ3.

I'd be willing to commit to your challenge if you still need a runner up to give the game to. My boys would probably give it a try too. So by giving the game to me, it would be like giving it to three. Better bang for your buck.

	10-08-2005 18:19									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Package sent to ninot yesterday.

As first runner up, Anun Ik Oba has the first shot at the remaining game. PM me with your mailing address before 12:00 Noon, CST USA, Friday, August 12.

	11-08-2005 01:53									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Trifna I hate CtP so much that I never played it

Gee, what a limited, blinkered, illogical and pointless exercise that was by you eh? If you've never played it, how do you know you hate it?

	11-08-2005 02:01									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Er, you know that was a joke right?

	11-08-2005 02:01									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Somebody doesn't get what the smiley denotes...

	12-08-2005 05:32									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I am going to join this debate for stankarp as he was temporarily banned from Apolyton and threatened for cross forum threading when he went public with AOM. In fact he received such an unbelievable amount of totally undeserved flak that it was disgusting IMHO.

Re Civ 3. I stopped playing it over a year ago because of some simple GAMEPLAY issues (The graphics etc of a game do not worry me any near as much as gameplay). By gameplay I mean the mechanics of playing the game and how much thought you have to put into a game.

After the initial glitz of civ3, it became boring, especially after the early development turns. AI cheats that really unbalance the game, one on one combat that was boring and unrealistic, no decent empire managers etc. Someone in this forum criticised the menus in CTP2, at least it HAS a menu that allows you to check a 60 city empire in 8 clicks, less time than it takes to work out the combination of faces on one size 20 city in civ 3.

I started on AOM as soon as it came out as I always like the smooth gameplay of CTP2, gameplay that allowed me to play competitively for points on line in gameleague. The mechanics of the gameplay are the same as CTP2, simple and easy once you know where stuff is. What has ramped up several levels is the other aspect of gameplay , the thought you put in the game.

Other ctp2 mods beefed up the ai but it still lacked focus in attack, even when it's forces got to the destination, they often did not attack. The initial release of AOM put that to rest in a big way, it was a little like middle earth to some, one described the ai as 'murderous". The ai was focused and aggressive, not just to the human but also against other ai and the barbarians. I personally saw in games where small empires rise quickly in power if they were successful in taking cities of another ai or the barbarians. While others fell if they were on the receiving end.

There are something like 23 new concepts in AOM, making it really a genuine expansion pack for ctp2. It has a couple of minor bugs, but the new concepts really make it like a new game. Unlike CTP2 mods, AOM put a lot of effort into making it a complete game, so new concepts etc are in the Great library, rather than briefly printed on a word readme.

The tweakings and a few historical type scripted events make it much more like real civilization IMHO. The ai has no more cheats than in previous mods but because it is more focused, it is more deadly. Very deadly. Too deadly for some. So stancarp has now released an update, bringing diplomacy up to the same level as other parts of AOM. I playtested the diplomacy update and it makes AOM the ultimate challenge for a thinking person IMHO.

Couple of quotes from the AOM forum.

Viceman.

quote: Had to say this, sorry to the Brits. Never seen so much work by so few to benefit so many for so little. Hats off to the AOM team. Suspect the Civ team are already copying things into civ 4. Fun + many new things + pressure= great game

Mithelemir

quote: The (AOM) turns CtPII from a mediocre game into the single best, turn-based civilization building game to date

AOM has a whole heap of new tools for players to use to develop strategy and you are under a little pressure all the time. The ai is developing all the time, the ones with aggressive personalities are eyeing off your territory all the time, the barbarians are a third force in the game until well into the middle ages. The scripted historical events place you under a little pressure to achieve certain milesones in your development.

In short, this game is not for people who build a few cities and move a few units. That saying "people who fail to plan, plan to fail" rings very true for AOM. It is like chess, you think it is simple at first, but then you suddenly realise the depth the game and how many different combinations there are.

Hats off to stancarp and the AOM team.
Links.
http://www.theagesofman.net/index.html
http://www.interwebgames.com.au/aomforum/

	12-08-2005 11:17									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Note, the Diplomacy Update is available as a 7 mb download from the AOM home page (uploaded yesterday). It is a simple job to update the AOM package (either disc or Apolyton download) to have all the latest inclusions.

I believe I have perfected the AI surrender code so that it now looks like it is 100% reliable, whereas before it seemed at times that in game stuff was blocking it. The AI is also more responsive to the diplomatic state between the Human and AI now until your aggression level gets too high.

	12-08-2005 18:04									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by angrybowen I am going to join this debate for stankarp as he was temporarily banned