18-08-2005 07:16									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I still use dail up for internet so AOM would take more than a day to download. Its best to have the CD anyhow as its very cheap and will be around for use when the download is removed from the site .

I will have to try the whole Apolpack with playtest Solver. Didnt know if it woud work as some have stated that they had problems with the mods.
Did you win on impossible level Solver?
I know the mods are good as I have played most of them- CTC has a killer AI-but wanted to see what the source code updates means for the future of CtP2
What about E,s tile work -nice blend of colors it brightens up the game.

	18-08-2005 11:02									#92
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After playing it for around 100 turns, I must admid that it is a great addition to CtP2.

I especially like, that the ancient times have been totaklly expanded. Normally within these ~100 turns you AFAIR would have already left the ancient times and gone to medieval times technologywise and to times > 0 AD timewise.
But with AoM itīs still before 1000 BC and you stioll have pleny of ancient units to research and ancient units to discover.
Gives the ancient times a much greater (and deserved ) importance within the game.

Itīs also great that now you can build settlers and put them to use, even if you already reeached the city max for your government, just by letting them buikd an outpost over resources (and resources now really play an important role )

Up to now I really like this game (and would prefer playing it over the vanilla CtP2 )

	19-08-2005 00:54									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Just finished (or rather, I was 'finished' by the AI) my first AoM game. Awesome stuff!

I doubt CIV4 will even bring so much to the Civ table as this mod has. Great work Stankarp!

	19-08-2005 02:28									#94
	Increase Your PM Length

Can we have an AOM mod where you can play the Huns or the Mongolians?
Just read about Tumejin and the Mongolian empire. Rather enlightened, in a way (and brutally practical in others).

	19-08-2005 04:07									#95
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I finally found something strange which probably should be fixed, if possible.

Sometimes, if you visit ruins and have a mercenary or barbarians appear from it, the unit which appears will be a king (had this twice, once for the barbarians and one mercenary king [and I hadnīt even researched dynasty]) sometimes you can even encounter poor defenseless barbarian migrants or nomads if you search through ruins.
Dunno, I have somehow the impression that especially kings shouldnīt appear from such random events.

	19-08-2005 05:18									#96
	Tired of ads?

Thanks for the comments

Couple of points. The mongols with a special wonder unit (genghis khan) come as a special Barbarian event later(turn 510), that is why the Mongols were removed as a playing nation.

I aimed to make each period of history different, with its own flavour. That is why there are more units, more turns etc. So you can fight a war with units from one period without suddenly finding your phalanx runs straight into legions.

Kings from ruins does not affect the game play, they are normal combat units so I cannot prevent them from appearing in ruins. However, the only time they can be a problem is if you already have a king and he has not been in power long. Once you have had TWO kings for more than 40 turns (after turn 120), their is a chance of a succession rebellion. If you pickup a king from ruins before your other king has been in power 40 turns, you may need to send him on a suicide mission.

Barbarians can build cities, so occassionally you will see barbarian nomads wandering around. However, they tend to be slow choosing a site to build a city. If I changed the priority giving to settling, it affected the attack priority of Barbarians which is their main function. Barbarian nomads could actually be from the barbarians killing a nomad. Everyone gets a migrant if they kill a nomad/settler type.

	19-08-2005 06:33									#97
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi Hex,

quote: So you will suddenly have to choose what to do with those funds - and many times will find that you cannot do everything you want to because of these multiple requirements. (...a 'guns or butter' choice)

Good point. I never looked at it that way before. TIs don't really cost anything with setters . . . although someone did point out that a setter does cost in terms of loss of a city worker who could be generating food/trade/shields. And settlers do cost money per turn (albeit a measly amount ... depending on your gov).

However, I think I would still miss the "logistic" aspect of moving the settlers around. Sometimes there was just simply a lot to do in different parts of my vast empire and I had to choose one over the other. Do I send ALL my settlers on the one side of the continent to finish those series of mines, or just some of them? Do I risk moving my settlers near uncharted areas where barbarians may pop out? Anyway . . . just a personal taste.

quote: CTP2/AOM multiplies every economic factor that is in civ3 by 10 (one shield in civ3 translates into 10 shields in CTP2/AOM) which allows for more flexibility and subtlety in the system.

I think flexibility is great. However, was it presented in CTP as 10 shields or as some decimal value?

I was briefly flipping thru my ol' CTP manual and noticed an example that displayed a decimal value. Again, I just seem to vaguely recall having to do many decimal calculations when dealing with the various building bonuses. Maybe it's the fact that Civ stuck with 50% and 100% whereas CTP also dealt with 25% and 20% and such. Hey, I'm not all that bad in math, but I want to play a game . . . not do homework.

quote: ...which is not much different than what is in place with the use of civ3's two global sliders of luxuries and science.

I was reminded a bit more about what bugged me with CTP's science as I was looking at the help chart. All of the buildings that increased science had a bonus % (as in Civ) but also added 1/2 point of science per citizen (or something like that). If I recall correctly, this was needed because the % bonus didn't justify constructing the building to begin with. I dunno, it just seemed a bit clunky to me.

quote: The current build of AOM has focused on diplomacy and the creation of better AI/player relations. Based on reports, it plays well

Good. In spite of my pessimism, I still hope the game works well for everyone.

quote: I would say that one of the main differences between civ3 and CTP2/AOM is the degree of long-term planning that is required in both games. This may scare off some players, but I think it is the best thing about CTP2/AOM because you have to preplan for long-range events - and all events in the game can be managed and dealt with.

If the events are truly manageable . . . then good. I just couldn't help but notice that earlier post from that guy (gal?) who was annoyed about this Dark Ages event coming in and wiping out his empire.

However, true to avoiding "historical entrapment", I think it would be interesting if the Dark Ages (and other events) only happened some of the time. Then you would have to strategize against the unknown. Do I build up a huge army in preparation for a possible Dark Age or do I risk it and build up my city improvements (or wonder) and get ahead of everyone else? As it appears now, you MUST prepare for the Dark Ages, regardless. (Or am I wrong? Are the Dark Ages guaranteed to come in AOM?). Quite frankly, I think a Dark Age event is pretty cool. I just don't think I'd like knowing it was ALWAYS going to come. The uncertainty would make it kind of suspenseful.

quote: There are unexpected events in CTP2/AOM, but they are not too harsh, and amount to a pinprick. There are also some drastic events, but they are scripted and can be prepared for.

It sounds like we agree here. IMOHO, the greater the disaster, the less often it should occur.

Well, I certainly hope I didn't sound as if I was bashing this game. I haven't even played CTP2 so I'm only going by what I read and my experience with the 1st CTP. It sounds like a lot of work went into AOM and I applaud the efforts . . . especially when you consider no help from Activision, from what I understand. However, the author of this thread (was that you Hex?) did ask for reasons as to why some of us did not purchase CTP2 (or something like that) so I figured I'd just cut loose (hopefully in a non-critical, tastful manner) and state my opinions in the hope that I'd win (though I see I'm a bit too late).

Thanks for listening, thanks for the insights and all the best to the AOM team!

	19-08-2005 10:42									#98
	Got spare money?

quote: Barbarian nomads could actually be from the barbarians killing a nomad

Correction. Barbarian MIGRANTS could actually be from the barbarians killing a nomad.

Re workers, my point is that you spend a few shields and one pop point and can build tile improvements for 6000 years. Not realistic. I also don't see a lot of difference between clicking to place where tile improvements are going to be built, and clicking to send a worker there, and then have to pick what he is going to do.

quote: If the events are truly manageable . . . then good. I just couldn't help but notice that earlier post from that guy (gal?) who was annoyed about this Dark Ages event coming in and wiping out his empire.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink or read a readme or strategy guide

quote: I think it would be interesting if the Dark Ages (and other events) only happened some of the time.

The events always happen, but what changes is the level of their intencity a little, or the location of the event, . Also your starting geography and resources also affects your ability to prepare. So in the mix it is always a little different. I had a game where I built 30 cataphracts to counter Attila but he spawned in a narrow band between me, the aztecs and the sea, took one look at my frontier fortifications built over 500 years to keep the aztecs out, and promptly went off and attacked the aztecs. I expect the legions, catapults and those fortifications, together with frontier cities being fortified, looked a bit too strong for him. That fixed his little pink wagon without firing an arrow.

	19-08-2005 11:15									#99
	Put an end to popups!

so let me get this straight? Is this a mod for CTP2? Is it pretty good? I'm tempted to reinstall this game and give it one last try...

	19-08-2005 11:20									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Locutus called it an unofficial expansion pack for CTP2 .

	19-08-2005 11:33									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Stan: I'm amazed you even understand the code! This is to say, I'm not throwing any stones. Fact is, AOM seems to have done some rather ingenous things to make the game challenging independent of the standard AI foes. I was telling Hex that I think Civ4 will be an expensive sandbox mode compared to this. In many ways, AOM has ruined me

yin26

AOM forum, 19 Aug, 05.

Sorry, I had to do it

	19-08-2005 15:14									#102
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by stankarp Kings from ruins does not affect the game play, they are normal combat units so I cannot prevent them from appearing in ruins. However, the only time they can be a problem is if you already have a king and he has not been in power long. Once you have had TWO kings for more than 40 turns (after turn 120), their is a chance of a succession rebellion. If you pickup a king from ruins before your other king has been in power 40 turns, you may need to send him on a suicide mission.

Yep, exactly thatīs whatīs worrying me. Although I donīt have dynasty yet, it will be among the next technologies I research and from earlier observations it seemed that, even if you already have researched dynasty, the succession of kings only starts after turn 120 (so, your first king is kind of immortal until turn 120 [as long as he isnīt killed in battle]).
Maybe you could tell me (if you can) what happens if I now research dynasty.
Will the program detect that I already have my mercenary king and not let another king appear some turns after researching?
Or will a second king appear in one of my cities.
And (if the second king appears), as it will be way befor turn 120, will one of them start the revolution 25 turns after the second king appeared, or will they wait with revolting until 25 turns after the dynasty starts (i.e. turn 145) and one of them starts aging?

quote: Originally posted by stankarp Barbarians can build cities, so occassionally you will see barbarian nomads wandering around. However, they tend to be slow choosing a site to build a city. If I changed the priority giving to settling, it affected the attack priority of Barbarians which is their main function. Barbarian nomads could actually be from the barbarians killing a nomad. Everyone gets a migrant if they kill a nomad/settler type.

They really build cities?
Thatīs great news

quote: Originally posted by Dis so let me get this straight? Is this a mod for CTP2? Is it pretty good? I'm tempted to reinstall this game and give it one last try...

Yep, I can only recommend it

	19-08-2005 18:22									#103
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So the first question has been answered

Upon researching dynasty I got a second king. So now the quesstion will only be, if the mercenary king starts a rebellion 25 turns from this point on, or if he waits till the dynasty counter begins running at turn 120 (and the king ages) and starts his rebellion 25 turns after this time.

	19-08-2005 18:42									#104
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Proteus, the 2 kings before t120 already happened to me. You don't have to worry about the 2 kings conflict until after that time.

	19-08-2005 20:00									#105
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Proteus, the 2 kings before t120 already happened to me. You don't have to worry about the 2 kings conflict until after that time.

Great, thanks.
(in my game the matter was solved the natural way upon ssearching through some ruins the mercenary king met some barbarians wo invited him to some games of "kill the king" )

	19-08-2005 20:04									#106
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dis so let me get this straight? Is this a mod for CTP2?

Yes

quote: Originally posted by Dis Is it pretty good?

More ...
Yes, but that may be subjective...Read what has been posted from other players.

quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm tempted to reinstall this game and give it one last try...

What do you have to lose??? You have the game already, and if you have hi-speed, all you lose is some computer time.

	19-08-2005 20:35									#107
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It can be kinda confusing that a mostly CTP2 thread is in a Civ IV forum.

Oh, btw Hex, i installed it all on my laptop last night but didnt get a chance to play. My laptop might have problems with it, as it didnt look entirely right on the screen. But I think I fixed it, so I'll try again soon as I can.

	19-08-2005 23:17									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't think it's that confusing to have this thread here, for 2 reasons:

1) This game is very likely to appease Civ players until Civ IV comes out. It's just so good and entertaining.
2) It shows what wonders one can build given extendive modding capabilities (SLIC and txt files). Since Civ IV will offer Python/xml scripting, it means we may hope Civ IV community may, eventually, spawn a mod of this quality too.
The new concepts (using settlers on resources to get advances) inside are also worth showing, as this game is probably more original than Civ IV will be, and some people may want Civ IV to be something more than Civ2 or 3 rehashed.

	20-08-2005 02:23									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

one more question, is there documentation for all this modding? Is there an in game help (I can't remember if they have a civpedia similar to civ3) that explains all the changes?

	20-08-2005 03:30									#110
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

AOM/ctp2 has a Great Library, similar to the civilopaedia.

Stankarp went to a lot of trouble to put the AOM changes into the GL. The new concepts are denoted with a * in the GL. Units than can be promoted or upgrade have a #* after their name, goods that can give an advance have a * after their name and so on.

It is the only major mod with the GL basically completly updated.

quote: Locutus called it an unofficial expansion pack for CTP2

by stankarp.

The claim is AOM is as different to CTP2 as civ3 is to civ 2. I disagree, it is MORE different. I cannot apply many, actually most, of the tactics and strategy I used in CTP2.

	20-08-2005 07:38									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

A pdf readme is available at

The Ages of Man

This spells out what the Mod does, and the gameplay elements involved.

The readme and strategy guide are also part of the download package

	20-08-2005 19:27									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hex,
I got the CDs in the mail Thursday night. Listened to the bonus files on the way to and from work. I will have to use it for much of my civ gaming.

Now for the challenge that I agreed to. Am I to play 500 turns of CTP2 and AOM to compare or just AOM? I didn't forget to get my boys involved in the testing.

The instructions that came with the CD are very clearly written. The inserts and tech tree are of professional quality. I am sure this expansion is of the same quality.

I'll keep you posted on our progress.

THANKS!

	21-08-2005 04:03									#113
	Suffering from ads?

skrobism,

Glad you liked the extras. It was a spur-of-the-moment thing...

(Sorry ninot, I thought of it a day after I sent out your package)

I'd suggest that you play AOM to start, and not even bother with CTP2. Treat it as you would any new game that you just bought...You can keep in mind the gameplay elements from civ3 as you play.

The CD does not have the current update though - feel free to download it from The Ages of Man

Enjoy!

	22-08-2005 05:14									#114
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Will do.

	22-08-2005 07:31									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Since Civ IV will offer Python/xml scripting, it means we may hope Civ IV community may, eventually, spawn a mod of this quality too.

Hopefully that won't be necessary to make Civ4 into a worthwhile game

	22-08-2005 12:14									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Dunno if it is possible or wanted, but if you develop AoM further, I have a suggestion for another feature:

Units on Hills and/or mountains having a greater visibility range.
After all it is realistic to assume, that a unit on a mountain can at least see lower terrain at a greater distance than units on the flat ground (Civ 3 had this too, units on mountains can see 3 hexes [on hills 2 hexes] and mountains/hills can also be seen from units on the flat ground at the same distance)

	22-08-2005 13:57									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

oh I didn't realize the deadline was Aug8. I sent a PM. oh well.

But seeing as I already installed ctp2, I'm giving it another whirl. And I'm still not liking it . The interface is just horrid.

I'm going to post a screenshot. Maybe someone can tell me what tiles my citizens are working. I have no idea. How do I know where to place farms if I don't know what tiles they are working? And after all those turns elapsed, I only had enough public works to build 3 roads.

And then the screen does not center on my active unit. And then you can accidently hit end turn (return) when you still have units that haven't moved this turn. Argh! This game is just not fun. It feels more like work.

Attachment: ctp2screenie.jpg
This has been downloaded 76 time(s).

	22-08-2005 14:21									#118
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm going to post a screenshot. Maybe someone can tell me what tiles my citizens are working. I have no idea. How do I know where to place farms if I don't know what tiles they are working? And after all those turns elapsed, I only had enough public works to build 3 roads.

They work all tiles inside your city radius at once

Until size 9 they work all the surrounding 8 hexes and gather a certain percentage of the summed up production/commerce/food of all these tiles (until by size 8 they get 100 % of these 8 hexes).
From size 9 on they get 100 % out of the 8 tiles surrounding the city and a certain perventage of those hexes 2 tiles from the city away (until at AFAIK size 17 they reach 100% of the second ring [and at size 19 the city radius again expands and they get 100% of the first and second ring and a certain poercentage out of the third ring])

So, to answer your question:
It doesnīt matter at which tile you build your farm as long as it is within your city radius, but it is advised that you build it as near to the city tile as possible.
(although AoM introduces a new concept, not present in Vanilla CtP2, i.e. that in the first ring surrounding the city, suburbs and visible wonders appear and perhaps destroy your tile improvements [but they improve the terrain for themselves, giving Boni to Commerce and Production of the tile, so you can say, one improvement [for which you paid] gets replaced by another improvement which didnīt cost you anything ])

	22-08-2005 14:24									#119
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dis But seeing as I already installed ctp2, I'm giving it another whirl. And I'm still not liking it . The interface is just horrid.

If the interface was designed for civ2 it would be horrid, but its not, its designed for CtP2, thats brings me to your next point...

quote: How do I know where to place farms if I don't know what tiles they are working?

Did you read the manual for civ3 or smac? If you read the CtP2 manual it would tell you the city works the tile under the city and ALL surrounding tiles, in the case of a new city, 8 surrounding tiles.

To be honest, if youve tried CtP2 before and still dont know this, it tells me you gave up pretty quickly.

quote: And after all those turns elapsed, I only had enough public works to build 3 roads.

What were you expecting?

If you understand how Public Works are produced (from the manual again) it should tell you not to waste so many turns on generating Public Works early in the game, when you have hardly no production base to tax from.

I wouldnt be surprised if you built those roads expecting a boost in arrows.

quote: And then the screen does not center on my active unit. And then you can accidently hit end turn (return) when you still have units that haven't moved this turn. Argh! This game is just not fun. It feels more like work.

Where you managed to turn on the grid through the graphic options menu (it isnt default), from there you had to move the mouse up a little bit into gameplay options and press "auto-center on". It wouldnt have taken you long to find that if you were looking, or were you expecting it to read your mind?

	22-08-2005 20:01									#120
	Got spare money?

Maq,
No need to be so harsh. but I'm wondering if Dis downloaded the Apolyton playtest version as well. Oh and cant AoM be downloaded from apoliyton still so he can get it that way.