11-08-2005 17:27									#1
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Please forgive a non-programmer posting at this hallowed forum.

However, in view of all the great mods (especially Stan Karp's AOM mod) that have already been created for CTP2 as well as some of the additional ideas that have featured in some of the Civ 3 mods (such as the widely acclaimed DYP mod), I was wondering whether the CTP2 Sorce Code project might be able to be adapted to somehow accommodate them?

Here is a (probably very bad) suggestion:

Once the basic CTP2 code has been amended (rendered bug-free, etc.) to everyone's liking, would it be possible for all the major components (especially the additive features) included in these user-made mods to be released as a series of separate (BUT COMPATIBLE) modules that could be added separately to CPT2. In this way, it should be feasible for the player to make CTP2 as simple (basic version) or as complex (with most of the available mod components) as s/he wants.

It has always been my regret (especially with Civ 3 and no doubt with the soon-to-be-released Civ4) that there are so many different user-made mods that (at least from a theoretical perspective) seem potentially compatible with each other. However, as they are all different products, it is sadly not possible to combine them .... although Stan Karp has seemingly come close to this with his massive (and magnificent) AOM mod.

Perhaps it might also be feasible to actually ADD new civilizations rather than have to SUBSTITUTE them as was the general rule for such Civ 3 mods.

Therefore, in summary, it would be great to be able to ADD these new features to CTP2 without having to LOOSE any other existing content.

Just a thought .....

	11-08-2005 19:57									#2
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Well you can combine the slic stuff very easily. But for the databases you are tied to the stuff that you find in them, you can't combine them easily, of course you can do it manually, but this results in the end in a custum made mod.

quote: Originally posted by Son of moose Perhaps it might also be feasible to actually ADD new civilizations rather than have to SUBSTITUTE them as was the general rule for such Civ 3 mods.

Currently the game has slots for 64 civs inclusing the Barbarians, we just updated the interface so that you can slect them all and of course we added all of our own we could find in the CTP1/2 mod databse.

-Martin

	11-08-2005 20:35									#3
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Martin:

Thank you for your reply.

The capacity for 64 DIFFERENT Civs is excellent .... hopefully some of the regulars (and experts) might be able to identify an official list containing the "best" available 64 civs.

[If, by any chance, there are many more civs that are clearly worthy of being incorporated into CTP2, maybe the source code can be altered to permit 128 civs?].

The earlier thrust of my initial post (which is possibly not particularly clear ) revolves around the possibility of being able to add various new structures (buildings) to the game .... something which I understand AOM has successfully done. (The DYP mod in Civ 3 also did this).

Perhaps a series of new resources (as determined by the experts) could also be added .... there is certainly an extremely long thread dedicated to this topic in the Civ 4 forum.

Possibly some new units as well ....

If correctly managed by the source code staff, these new structures, resources and units could add yet further immense depth to this game. It could then be possible to add some well-loved (and missing) structures appearing in the other Civ and CTP games.

	11-08-2005 21:39									#4
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Son of moose,

It ought to be possible to add a lot of buildings and units, but since they are text files you just switch between them of course advances have to match units etc. If you are looking to make a master list it might not be difficult either except its all done via text.

If you are asking for an enhanced editor instead of dealing with the text files I think its a ways out.

I have tried to make civ3 units, terain etc but it is some work. If you are interested in digging into the sprite editor and making units from civ3, let me know. we could use more graphics makers around here.

	11-08-2005 22:16									#5
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E:

Thanks for your reply.

quote: It ought to be possible to add a lot of buildings and units, but since they are text files you just switch between them of course advances have to match units etc. If you are looking to make a master list it might not be difficult either except its all done via text.

This sounds most promising.

It just seems to me that there are a lot of extremely useful mods out there that could somehow be added to CTP2 via the source code project. Successfully cataloging them (for compatibility with the source code project) via some sort of official master list would possibly seem to be the way to go.

An enhanced editor would seem to be a unnnecessarily complex addition.

Unfortunately, as much as I like good graphics (and see the need for an upgraded CTP2 to contain as many new high quality graphics as possible), I am not adept at graphics or programming.

Sadly, I have to limit myself to being somewhat of an "ideas" person.

	11-08-2005 22:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose Unfortunately, as much as I like good graphics (and see the need for an upgraded CTP2 to contain as many new high quality graphics as possible), I am not adept at graphics or programming. Sadly, I have to limit myself to being somewhat of an "ideas" person.

too bad. I wasn't really looking for a graphic arist though, just someone that can use the Civ3 Flicster take out appropriate frames convert to a TGA and then make them into sprites. It can be tedious at times but its been the only way to add more units with out full on graphic arts...

	11-08-2005 23:09									#7
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E:

Sorry about that.

Is this the way that one could (theoretically at least) add new units and structures (especially from Civ 3) to CTP2? This is really clever and certainly lends one the opportunity of incorporating several of the better (and more appropriate) Civ 3 mods directly into CTP2.

Hopefully there are other members who will be able to assist you with this extremely important venture.

	11-08-2005 23:43									#8
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if you want to see how the civ3 graphics mod looks, including units here's the link:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=130520

there is only limited (but hardcore) interest here so I'm pretty much doing graphics by myself

	12-08-2005 00:07									#9
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E:

CONGRATULATIONS .... they are really good!!!!

Here follows a quote from Dracon II in the linked thread:

quote: Would it not be possible to incorporate culture and strategic resources by tweaking the released source code? I think that a fusion of civ3 and ctp2 (not just a cosmetic overhaul) could be quite good. Mind you I have no idea just how much work that would involve (probably a lot).

In many respects, Dracon II has most elegantly repeated an important aspect of my initial query .... about being able to incorporate some of the best features of Civ 3 and maybe even Civ 4 (especially new buildings, resources and units) into CTP2 via the source code project.

Maybe I am somewhat unique in this regard, but I would really like to be able to emphasize the element of BUILDING (with regard to a plethora of relevant ingame city buildings as well as major and minor Wonders and a host of tile improvements) in my CTP2-related empire building exploits. This development would imho serve to make CTP2 a far more varied and epic game.

	12-08-2005 00:40									#10
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Ctp2 has quite a lot of buildings already but a quick tip on adding them would be to copy a similar building in the text name it to the Civ3 name and then find the match TGAs and add the Civ3 images to it. I may do that in time, but help would be nice.

Culture is a ways out, it will require changing th influence borders from culture points instead of the current population growth. Possibly would could make it an option in the const to grow borders culture or by population and then add a culture flag to wonders and buildings but I think the effort isfar off for now


As for resources. I have already coded that you can build only certain units if a good is in the city radius but still have to work out what happens when you trade it, or set up a "sharing" of the good by using the oad network or colonies that civ3 does. So its still a ways off.

If you know any coders it'll be nice to get some more people around here...

	12-08-2005 01:00									#11
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E:

quote: Ctp2 has quite a lot of buildings already but a quick tip on adding them would be to copy a similar building in the text name it to the Civ3 name and then find the match TGAs and add the Civ3 images to it. I may do that in time, but help would be nice.

You could possibly check the "Double your Pleasure (DYP)" mod for Civ 3 which has a host of new buildings .... although the relevance of some of them might be a little questionable.

Culture imho is therefore not really that important.


Resources (as per Civ 3) might be a more important consideration .... especially if they serve an important strategic purpose.

quote: If you know any coders it'll be nice to get some more people around here...

I will see what I can do ....

	13-08-2005 01:07									#12
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CTP2 can have up to 64 buildings and 64 wonders, more of the other stuff. The standart CTP2 doesn't reach these numbers, but adding them to the source code project means screwing up the indeces of the database, and would cause incompatibilites with old save games, so you have to make it as mod.

However if you just want to replace the graphics then there is no problem, but I am little bit reluctant about Civ3 graphics, because Civ3 graphics are just 8bit instead of 16bit, Civ3 units are samller then CTP2 units I think this holds also for goods, and Civ3 units and goods do not have tranparency, the consequence is that they look like stickers. So you have to put some work into them to make them really good.

quote: Originally posted by E As for resources. I have already coded that you can build only certain units if a good is in the city radius but still have to work out what happens when you trade it, or set up a "sharing" of the good by using the oad network or colonies that civ3 does. So its still a ways off.

Actual you just coded it somehow, but not well. And you have to answer my qestions.

-Martin

	13-08-2005 01:35									#13
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Martin:

Thank you for your reply.

quote: CTP2 can have up to 64 buildings and 64 wonders, more of the other stuff.

This is a really meaningful number and could give rise to some potentially interesting additional structures for CTP2. [Is the figure of 64 hard coded or could it possibly be upgraded to (say) 128]?.

quote: but adding them to the source code project means screwing up the indeces of the database, and would cause incompatibilites with old save games, so you have to make it as mod.

Well .... with all respect, I would imagine that the creation of a truly spectacular (and all-inclusive) mod should surely represent the end-point of the CTP2 source code project.

quote: but I am little bit reluctant about Civ3 graphics, because Civ3 graphics are just 8bit instead of 16bit, Civ3 units are samller then CTP2 units I think this holds also for goods, and Civ3 units and goods do not have tranparency, the consequence is that they look like stickers. So you have to put some work into them to make them really good.

So much for progress.

Hopefully there are some talented artists who might be prepared to suitably upgrade some of the relevant Civ 3 (and/or mod) graphics to be compatible with the "superior" CTP2 graphics.

	13-08-2005 01:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose This is a really meaningful number and could give rise to some potentially interesting additional structures for CTP2. [Is the figure of 64 hard coded or could it possibly be upgraded to (say) 128]?.

quote: Originally posted by Son of moose So much for progress.

That's preference, actual I prefer the CTP1 high mountains over those of CTP2, but at least a terrain only mod can be installed seperately of all othermods, and of course that goes for a simple replacement of CTP2 units and city styles as well and the special effects.

-Martin

	13-08-2005 02:35									#15
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Maybe a combining of Cradle mod numbers to aidata file with many of the options from Apolpack mod to the finished patch for CtP2.
AI would be unbeatable at highest levels. The playtest shows promise ( thanks to the hard labor of some) but still there are odd moves of some units: settlers.
Ages of Man looks to be the best mod for CtP2 hands down.
The main thought with playtesting was to remove bugs and make the patch compatable to all mods. So everyone adds what they want after finished patch.
But latest playtest 8 02 05 shows AI is managing its empire better. Building more cities and using land resources to produce faster. In some ways playtests are showing a improved AI not just removing bugs.

	13-08-2005 13:26									#16
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Protra3211:

Yes, from what I have read, the Cradle of Man and the Apolyton Pack seem to represent the best of the early CTP2 mods. However, as you so correctly say, the Ages of Man mod (add-on) is currently clearly THE CTP2 mod to have.

Certainly ai is an extremely important aspect for players who are looking for the ultimate challenge on the higher (more difficult) game settings. From what I hear, AOM certainly packs a considerable punch in this regard .... as the ai is virtually capable of "thinking" and effectively countering most player-based strategies.

However, Stan Karp (the developer of the AOM mod), notes that the AOM SLIC code is not compatible with the CTP2 source code (due to a problem with the SLIC Arrays). This is very sad .... but hopefully one of the talented programmers attached to the CTP2 source code project might yet be able to devise an elegant method of being able to introduce the 23 new concepts that Stan added to the AOM mod.

Therefore, in summary, I feel that it would be a great and noble goal for the CTP2 source code project to aim to develop (make available to the community) the ULTIMATE CTP2 MOD (ADD-ON) which incorporates:

# The removal of the vast majority of bugs that so negatively affected gameplay in the original (commercial) version of CTP2

# The incorporation of all the worthy user-made ADDITIVE features that appeared in mods such as the Cradle of Man and the Apolyton Pack as well as (imho most importantly) the Ages of Man mod (with its 23 new concepts)

# The possible incorporation of material from acclaimed mods for some of the other Civ games (such as the Double Your Pleasure mod for Civ 3)

# The possible inclusion of some of the well-beloved features appearing in SMAC for the futuristic CTP2 eras where this technology would belong. [I fully realise this is possibly the most contraversial suggestion as SMAC is one of those games that Civ fans appear to either love or hate.

It would seem that the release of the CTP2 source code has provided the Civ modding community with a seemingly unique opportunity to be able to create the "Civ game to end all Civ games". Sure, the advent of Civ 4 is exciting .... but the ongoing development of a version of CTP2 that effectively combines ALL the best features of the existing Civ games as well as the most appropriate community-based suggestions (wishes) would most surely "knock the socks off" Civ 4 (or, indeed, a future Civ5).

THIS IS THE CHALLENGE ....

	13-08-2005 16:01									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose # The possible inclusion of some of the well-beloved features appearing in SMAC for the futuristic CTP2 eras where this technology would belong. [I fully realise this is possibly the most contraversial suggestion as SMAC is one of those games that Civ fans appear to either love or hate.

I agree with this in part, certainly the atmosphere in SMAC is worth recreating, perhaps through changing menu graphics at future ages, useful popups, stuff like that.

The future in CtP2 right now is just like the other ages but with different names, we need to create a different feel and challenge for each age, like AoM but more random. I dont think this should be beyond the reach of the sourcecode project either.

	13-08-2005 16:14									#18
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Maquiladora:

Thank you for your reply!!

quote: we need to create a different feel and challenge for each age, like AoM

This is an excellent idea that could well serve to raise CTP2 to a level well beyond that of all the other Civ games (including the soon-to-be-released Civ4).

Another important (more general) question is:


HOW CAN WE GET MORE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THE CTP2 SOURCE PROJECT?

While it is totally understandable that Civ 4 should currently take centre stage, the CTP2 source code project should allow the community to have an unprecidented amount of input into the ongoing (re)development of an existing game.

	13-08-2005 16:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose HOW CAN WE GET MORE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THE CTP2 SOURCE PROJECT? While it is totally understandable that Civ 4 should currently take centre stage, the CTP2 source code project should allow the community to have an unprecidented amount of input into the ongoing (re)development of an existing game.

We just keep going.

I think we need to identify what people hate/d most about CtP2 and stopped playing it, although i cant tell you for sure how interested old players will be in coming back.

Some of the views are just bias, like against stacked combat, public works, i cant see these ever being changed a great deal, but things like the interface, simple and precisely accurate in-game numbers (not just for the obsessives), trade, diplomacy, air and sea combat, can all be improved.

	13-08-2005 16:51									#20
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Maquiladora :

quote: I think we need to identify what people hate/d most about CtP2 and stopped playing it

Yes .... this would indeed seem to be a good starting point.

[Perhaps along with the features that people really loved about the other Civ games or wished could have been incorporated into them].

quote: Some of the views are just bias, like against stacked combat, public works

From what I have read in the comparative debates about the respective merits of CTP2 and (say) Civ 3, I would contend that these two particular features could well possibly serve to lift CTP2 above the other Civ games.

However, this is just a personal viewpoint from one who would possibly rather micromanage a whole host of other exciting ingame features than dozens (or even hundreds) of villagers.

In addition, the stacked combat model also seems to hold many potential advantages (like realism) over the more conventional Civ military model.

Maybe there is some way in which these two features could be further enhanced in order to make them more attractive to the mainstream Civ community?

	13-08-2005 17:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose [Perhaps along with the features that people really loved about the other Civ games or wished could have been incorporated into them].

The goal set-out at the beginning of the project was just to fix or complete unfinished features, adding new features will be done via mods as Martin has said.

As ive said i dont think it should be beyond the project to add new features, such as strategic resources, but i dont think we all have the same opinion on this. Plus im not a programmer, so my view is from one side only, the player.

quote: Maybe there is some way in which these two features could be further enhanced in order to make them more attractive to the mainstream Civ community?

They can always be improved, PW could extract resources from food, prod. or commerce, or all of them, to balance the power of production in CtP2, but if you hear the reasons some people dislike public works, "there are no workers", then theres not a lot you can do to change their mind. It would be a massive backward step to incorporate workers just for them.

	13-08-2005 17:38									#22
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Maquiladora:

quote: the reasons some people dislike public works, "there are no workers", then theres not a lot you can do to change their mind. It would be a massive backward step to incorporate workers just for them.

Indeed!!

	13-08-2005 18:18									#23
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I dont know how far the team can go with the source code. A bad boy rating might change how we play the game . As human player reaches first place some of the other AI factions will team up as a defensive hege . Its in games like Civ3 -Galciv-Eu2. Can have its down side as Civ3 AI factions tends to gang up to quick making the game a warfest.
In a sense its in CtP2. If you break treaties or use weapons of MD you lose trust and regard of all Civ,s which could lead to war. But AI still does not see you as a threat as you expand your borders late in the game out scoring all factions.
A late game event that could upset your plans might be fun. .Such as a space race-UN vote.

	13-08-2005 21:39									#24
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Actual the AIs shouldn't combine their powers to beat the human player, just because the human player is human eh well and strong. They should combine their powers, because the others are too strong whether they are AI or human. So what about something like:

The Ix-yies are so aggressive, they are so strong, let's combine our forces to end this.

Or a bunch of AIs askes you:
We have formed the powerfull alleance to end the expansion of the Ix-yies, do you like to jion us.

At least that would give the diplomacy victory another note. But for this we need multiple civ agreements.

-Martin

	17-08-2005 02:27									#25
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quote: Originally posted by E If you are asking for an enhanced editor instead of dealing with the text files I think its a ways out.

Actually I wrote CTPEd ages ago which serves that purpose. It's not as nice as it could be, but it mostly works. In particular it's very useful for auto-generating GL entries.