16-08-2005 05:58									#61
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To be honest, the sins of my forefather are not mine to pay for so to speak. Also there would be no slave trade without african involvement. They had slavery in Africa at the time, the Brits just exported them for them.

	16-08-2005 06:12									#62
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue there would be no slave trade without african involvement. They had slavery in Africa at the time, the Brits just exported them for them.

The Europeans completely changed the way slavery worked in Africa. The demand for slaves suddenly increased considerably, and the Euros were bringing merchandise that was highly valued by Africans. As a result, the massive subjugation of populations became a highly profitable trade for some chiefdoms (some chiefdoms fed off war and subjugation), while impoverishing Africa as a whole.

Nowadays, several African countries memorialise slavery and the local contribution to it (for example, Benin holds a "march for memory and apology"). However, the destrction of African societies through slavery wouldn't have been possible without the massive demand created by the Europeans.

That, and slavery is a crime against humanity in itself, no matter the economic impact. Something all of Europe and quite a few Arab countries should accept as a horrible part of their past.

	16-08-2005 06:32									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cuba is now run by the decendents of the slaves.

Castro's black?

	16-08-2005 06:38									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That, and slavery is a crime against humanity in itself, no matter the economic impact. Something all of Europe and quite a few Arab countries should accept as a horrible part of their past.

It is so now. It was not then. There is a massive difference.

You are right that it was a horrible part of the world at that time, but it was just that... a part of the world. Were there many places in the 16th century that did not have slavery or indentured servitude of some sort?

	16-08-2005 06:42									#65
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indeed.

i think everyone recognises that slavery was wrong and did a lot of damage to africa, but it doesn't follow from that, that we should somehow pay for what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago.

	16-08-2005 06:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Castro's black?

He ain't all white. In any event, Cuba isn't run soley by Castro, anymore than Bush runs the U.S. all by himself.

	16-08-2005 08:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The lowest figure I ever saw was 15 million made it to the Americas. Now, if we factor in that only one in three survived the voyage, that's 45 million people taken from Africa. Most of the slaves who made it here were worked to death (the North American colonies were somewhat less lethal), and over a period of three hundred years, that's not an unreasonable sum, works out to about 15,000 a year for all of the Americas.

you missed a zero, that works out to 150,000 a year.
Thats one hell of a Merchant fleet for slaving alone.

	16-08-2005 11:01									#68
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Just as an aside, but I wonder how long it would have taken for Slavery to die out if the British Empire hadn't declared it piracy on the high seas in the 1830s?

Methinks a century probably.

	16-08-2005 11:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He ain't all white. In any event, Cuba isn't run soley by Castro, anymore than Bush runs the U.S. all by himself.

With that logic, USA is also run by decendents of the slaves. Just ask Condie.

	16-08-2005 11:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He ain't all white. In any event, Cuba isn't run soley by Castro, anymore than Bush runs the U.S. all by himself.

Right. He has Rice and Obama helping him. It seems the US could use your argument.

	16-08-2005 11:51									#71
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Damn Swedes!

	16-08-2005 12:22									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Havent you seen Coming to America?

yeah those chicks were hot.

	16-08-2005 13:00									#73
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Does this go for descendents of ancient slaves as well?

	16-08-2005 14:43									#74
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Hey, my Family's from Ireland, I'm only here because my Great Grandfather was so poor in Ireland he had to join the British army to feed his family. Can I get reparations too please?

	16-08-2005 14:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Just as an aside, but I wonder how long it would have taken for Slavery to die out if the British Empire hadn't declared it piracy on the high seas in the 1830s? Methinks a century probably.

How come the US and Brazil still bought slaves for a jolly long time then?

	16-08-2005 15:03									#76
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i think everyone recognises that slavery was wrong and did a lot of damage to africa

I don't know how it is in Britain, but in France slavery falls completely under the radar. We have done a good memory job on WW2, we are beginning to do so on Algeria (two great shames for France during the 20th century), but the memory work on slavery is very timid. Basically, the only ones who care are the black community and politicians. The ordinary people will sure tell you that slavery is bad, but it doesn't get the immediate attention as some other events (like the Jewish genocide).

	16-08-2005 16:26									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor How come the US and Brazil still bought slaves for a jolly long time then?

Smuggling.

	16-08-2005 16:53									#78
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The U.S. imported only 10% of the slaves that were imported to Brazil, and very few were imported in the decades before the civil war. It was a good deal more expensive to import slaves into the U.S. than to Brazil in the age of sail, so most American slaves were born into slavery.

	16-08-2005 17:16									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The ordinary people will sure tell you that slavery is bad, but it doesn't get the immediate attention as some other events (like the Jewish genocide).

nor should it, because the holocaust happend within living memory, whereas slavery ended (at least in british domains) in the 1830s.

	16-08-2005 21:59									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In any event, Cuba isn't run soley by Castro,

That would be technically impossible. But what Castro says, you do, or else.

	16-08-2005 22:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm against taking money from private citizens of course. Only taking it from corporations.

You do understand that a corporation is made up of stockholders who are private citizens?

Instead of taking a small sum of money from one person, you're taking large sums of money from a lot of people.

	16-08-2005 22:05									#82
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Oprah Winfery has profitted more from slavery than I ever have or will... how much should she pay?

	16-08-2005 22:05									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Compared to the rest of the world, no. Compared to what Europe stole from them, hardly.

The United States and Western Europe have given Nigeria over $400,000,000,000 in aid over the past 40 years.

	16-08-2005 22:08									#84
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't think anyone ever said they were utopian. However, as noted in the colonialism thread, they were a far sight better off then what came after. Slavery and colonialism destroyed Africa. Africa may not have become like Europe, but it probably wouldn't have been the basket case it is today.

By what metric do you use to say that Africa would have been better left untouched?

	16-08-2005 22:16									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor How come the US and Brazil still bought slaves for a jolly long time then?

we stopped buying in 1808.

	16-08-2005 22:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As a member of the society who benefited from their labor, yes, that's the idea. Of course, as tax payers, the decedents of slaves would also be paying.

My family arrived 100 years ago from Poland, Scotland and Norway.

quote: What happened to them? They got all their wealth stolen during colonialism.

So Africa is now devoid of all of it's mineral resources? You'd better not tell South Africa, or the Congo, or Nigeria, or Gabon, or Angola, or Liberia, or Zambia.

quote: You don't know squat about African history then, reds. I suggest you look up Mansa Musa.

Mansa Musa, the theocratic tyrant? If you want to read up on benevolent leadership, learn about Sejong the Great instead of Musa, who effectively threw away Mali's gold supply and after his death, led to a civil war?

	16-08-2005 22:24									#87
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quote: we are beginning to do so on Algeria (two great shames for France during the 20th century)

I agree. They way you completely pussed out in Algeria is almost as shameful as the WWII fiasco.

	16-08-2005 22:31									#88
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Well my fellow countrymen, it looks like we are going to have to pack up and go back to Germany, Italy, etc, after all, our ancestors stole this country from the Celts if you go back far enough. It's only right

Or in other words, I've never heard anything so ridiculous...it's history and out of our lifetimes...how the hell can we make reparations for something that have absolutely nothing to do with us. You can't change the past!

	16-08-2005 22:35									#89
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe The United States and Western Europe have given Nigeria over $400,000,000,000 in aid over the past 40 years.

And they thank us by trying to trick gullible Europeans and Americans via Spam-Mails

	16-08-2005 22:37									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: we are beginning to do so on Algeria (two great shames for France during the 20th century) I agree. They way you completely pussed out in Algeria is almost as shameful as the WWII fiasco.

Indeed, we were pussies. We were content with torturing them ragheads We should have also killed them and their families!

Edit: Oh wait we did