16-08-2005 02:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Che, So am I to pay up?

As a member of the society who benefited from their labor, yes, that's the idea. Of course, as tax payers, the decedents of slaves would also be paying.

quote: Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots?

What happened to them? They got all their wealth stolen during colonialism.

quote: "Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.

You don't know squat about African history then, reds. I suggest you look up Mansa Musa.

	16-08-2005 02:17									#32
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I dont have a problem with the notion of compensation IN PRINCIPLE. For good capitalist, common law reasons. And for the same reasons, have no trouble with paying my share, though the descendant of post-1880 immigrants. And would have no trouble with african americans paying their share as well (an oft raised pseudodifficulty)

If a corporation commited a tort against someone, its shareholders need to make good for that damage. If i buy a share in that company AFTER the tort, I still share (as stockholder) in the payment of damages. If i am simultaneously a shareholder, and plaintiff against the same corp, it still is considered correct for me to collect damages (even though a small portion is from myself) the same holds true when a govt entity commits a tort, to the extent that the govt entity allows suits against itself. None of this is as problematic as the anti-compensation folks make out. also, the only issue is the damage caused, NOT benefit gained. If i run over you in my car, i have to pay you, even if i gained no benefit.


The real problems are practical, assuming payment is to be made to individuals. At 140 years, its very hard to identify correct recipients, given intermarriage, immigrations of blacks from outside the US, etc. In the case of German reparations to Jews, this was simplified by making payments ONLY to actual survivors, who had suffered directly in europe from 1939 to 1945. If you werent there, you got nothing, even if your family was killed. Look at how many people have discovered indian blood since certain tribes became wealthy from casinos. Expect something similar.


Guev says just add to payment for the poor. But of course not all descendants of slaves are poor, and plenty of non-descendants of slaves are poor. and if payment to poor is reparations, then some would say past payments of reparations have discharged the debt. Guev is assuming there is some "just" level of payments for the poor, that we are below it, and that it could be increased based on reparations. I suggest that this would create greater difficulties than figuring out whose a descendant of slaves. It would also add to the conflation of the issue of poverty with that of race, which has been of the tragedies of America for decades - folks see income distribution (falsely) through the lens of race, and they see race too exclusively through the lens of poverty.


Heres my suggestion. 1. Acknowledge the debt in principle. 2. Establish a fund, out of which disbursements would be made to things like memorializing slavery and the slave trade, supporting african american culture, researching diseases that principally strike african americans, etc (while trying to be careful that this isnt used as an excuse to cut existing programs in these areas) This would get around the problems of identification. I also dont think the amounts need to be that large - many african americans simply want acknowldgement, I think.

	16-08-2005 02:25									#33
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quote: If a corporation commited a tort against someone, its shareholders need to make good for that damage. If i buy a share in that company AFTER the tort, I still share (as stockholder) in the payment of damages.

Isn't it the point of a corporation that, as a shareholder, you aren't liable for more than your investment?

	16-08-2005 02:25									#34
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I think Jim Crow has much more to do with the state of modern Black America than slavery. It would also be far easier to identify the vicitims of Jim Crow than of slavery.

	16-08-2005 02:50									#35
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Che,

You quote ONE man as a reason to why Africa MIGHT have been like Europe? Hell, Africa even had the odd great country over the last couple of millenia, however the continent in general was, and is, a dump.

	16-08-2005 02:54									#36
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reds, just out of interest what were people on the program suggesting we do?

and yeah africa would have been better off without slavery, but even without 'european' slavery and colonialism east africa would still have suffered just as much because of the arabs installed there for over 1000 years.

	16-08-2005 02:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Che, So am I to pay up? As a member of the society who benefited from their labor, yes, that's the idea. Of course, as tax payers, the decedents of slaves would also be paying. quote: Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots? What happened to them? They got all their wealth stolen during colonialism.

I don't see that makes any difference? Just because they lost the money doesn't make them less responsible?

	16-08-2005 03:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever "Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.

You and Che may want to contribute to these discussions:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=136137
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=136511

Some interesting arguments there, and some info that could fill you in, Reds.

Also, if you wish to participate in the threads, remember that they aren't in the OT, and the people there aren't used to our frank exchange of views

	16-08-2005 03:01									#39
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Che, You quote ONE man . . .

That was off the top of my head. I'm sure those more versed in African history can give you more detail.

	16-08-2005 03:04									#40
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Against reparations. My relatives and ancestors had nothing to do with the Western slave trade; I don't see why I, today, should bear the costs.

I don't mind increasing assistance to the poor, the disadvantaged; I don't mind helping out my fellow man, when I can afford it. But tying financial aid like that to racial politics and historical misfortunes galls me.

If you call it reparations, I'm not paying for it, and I refuse to support it. If you call it financial assistance, aid, or what not, and don't restrict it just on the basis of skin color, count me in.

	16-08-2005 03:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney reds, just out of interest what were people on the program suggesting we do? and yeah africa would have been better off without slavery, but even without 'european' slavery and colonialism east africa would still have suffered just as much because of the arabs installed there for over 1000 years.

The guy, Dr Robert Beckworth (or summat like that) was asking for £5 Trillion (yes Trillion) in reparations he seemed to want statues in comemoration(sp), African aid (like they don't get enough) and bursaries to educate blacks. I'm sure PA would suggest he could put the money towards airfare for those who'd like to get back to the African paradise that they have been denied.

Whatever the may think of the entire issue, the good Dr put a VERY one-sided case, even doing interviews and voicing over the reply to the questions he'd asked!

	16-08-2005 03:09									#42
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And for the record I'm opposed to such reparations. IMO, the aid should be granted to those who need help, and who suffer from a wrong themselves (I don't know how it is in the UK, but in France, many blacks live in impoverished communities and have their chances stifled by a prevalent racism - this is typically a problem that deserves to be tackled, and it is barely related to slavery).

OTOH, I'm all for a public acknowledgement that slavery was a crime against humanity, and that it completely destroyed many African societies. I'm all for our societies to be aware of the horrors our countries wrought; I'm all against some heirs profiteering from the guilt.

	16-08-2005 03:14									#43
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever I don't see that makes any difference? Just because they lost the money doesn't make them less responsible?

They also lost their countries and became slaves themselves when the Europeans arrived. You are terribly ignorant when it comes to Africa, so stop trying to use it to make a point. You'd do better to stick with Britain.

	16-08-2005 03:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever The guy, Dr Robert Beckworth (or summat like that) was asking for £5 Trillion (yes Trillion) in reparations he seemed to want statues in comemoration(sp), African aid (like they don't get enough) and bursaries to educate blacks. I'm sure PA would suggest he could put the money towards airfare for those who'd like to get back to the African paradise that they have been denied. Whatever the may think of the entire issue, the good Dr put a VERY one-sided case, even doing interviews and voicing over the reply to the questions he'd asked!

i'll bet dr robert beckworth is a white guy :/

anyway i think we know how far his idea will get

	16-08-2005 03:16									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That was off the top of my head. I'm sure those more versed in African history can give you more detail.

So you pull me up for not knowing "squat about African history" but it turns out you're just as ignorant!

	16-08-2005 03:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever African aid (like they don't get enough)

Compared to the rest of the world, no. Compared to what Europe stole from them, hardly.

	16-08-2005 03:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever So you pull me up for not knowing "squat about African history" but it turns out you're just as ignorant!

I know enough to know you know nothing. I know quite a bit more, but I'd have to go hit the books to make sure my details were correct, or someone would go to wiki and pull a quote and say something like, "well, you had the dates wrong on when the Catholic Kindgom of the Congo had ambassadors in Portugal, so obviosuly you are full of ****."

	16-08-2005 03:25									#48
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Cockney,

Believe it or not Dr Beckworth is a OxBridge educated dredd. Why the hell he needs reparations is beyond me.....

	16-08-2005 03:27									#49
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I think if it can be proven that a specific corporation benefitted from slavery, yes they should pay. Chase Manhatten is one example. I believe they have proven ties to slavery. And then the money could only go to people who can prove their ancestors were slaves.

I'm against taking money from private citizens of course. Only taking it from corporations.

	16-08-2005 03:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Believe it or not Dr Beckworth is a OxBridge educated dredd. Why the hell he needs reparations is beyond me.....

From what you wrote, he wouldn't get a dime from the program he supports. The only money that goes directly in individual hands are education handouts, and he's already educated.

	16-08-2005 03:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I know enough to know you know nothing. I know quite a bit more, but I'd have to go hit the books to make sure my details were correct, or someone would go to wiki and pull a quote and say something like, "well, you had the dates wrong on when the Catholic Kindgom of the Congo had ambassadors in Portugal, so obviosuly you are full of ****."

So youre lazy not ignorant?

	16-08-2005 03:34									#52
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Correct. I haven't done research on for an OT thread in years. Ain't worth it. Look up the book, Before the Mayflower. It's an excellent history of pre-American discovery Africa.

Just cuz Europe has forgotten it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

	16-08-2005 03:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You and Che may want to contribute to these discussions: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=136137 http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=136511 Some interesting arguments there, and some info that could fill you in, Reds. Also, if you wish to participate in the threads, remember that they aren't in the OT, and the people there aren't used to our frank exchange of views

Understood

	16-08-2005 03:40									#54
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Cuba could start paying, they had slaves too, didn't they?

	16-08-2005 03:50									#55
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Cuba is now run by the decendents of the slaves.

	16-08-2005 04:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They also lost their countries and became slaves themselves when the Europeans arrived. You are terribly ignorant when it comes to Africa, so stop trying to use it to make a point. You'd do better to stick with Britain.

So because they're poor, failed thieves they shouldn't have to pay?

You're just a self righteous bleeding heart, arn't you? It's easy to take the high moral ground and call me "ignorant" while you cite an example that a 4 year old could of Googled up as evidence of African civilization that would have rivalled Europe?

	16-08-2005 04:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tha assumes that Africa would have been the pit of dispair it became after having tens of millions, maybe even 100 million people carted away between the 16th and 19th Centuries, whole kingdoms destroyed, societies completely disrupted.

11 million people were taken to the Americas. A lot more were taken by the Arabs, but because of certain measures they undertook they won't have to worry about paying decendents anything.

	16-08-2005 04:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever The whole idea that Africa had all these utopian kingdoms that the white man destroyed is a myth.

Havent you seen Coming to America?

	16-08-2005 05:41									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha 11 million people were taken to the Americas. A lot more were taken by the Arabs, but because of certain measures they undertook they won't have to worry about paying decendents anything.

The lowest figure I ever saw was 15 million made it to the Americas. Now, if we factor in that only one in three survived the voyage, that's 45 million people taken from Africa. Most of the slaves who made it here were worked to death (the North American colonies were somewhat less lethal), and over a period of three hundred years, that's not an unreasonable sum, works out to about 15,000 a year for all of the Americas.

	16-08-2005 05:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever So because they're poor, failed thieves they shouldn't have to pay?

Which countries would that be?

quote: You're just a self righteous bleeding heart, arn't you?

Uh, no. You obviously haven't read what I wrote. My mistake for thinking you wanted to learn something instead of making a thread to make fun of the stupid, greedy niggers.

quote: It's easy to take the high moral ground and call me "ignorant"

I'm not taking any high ground. You made an ignorant statement about the history of Africa and I corrected you with, as you pointed out, an easily discoverable fact. The question then becomes, if it was so easy to discover it, what's your excuse for not knowing it?