16-08-2005 01:02									#1
	Slave reparations (UK C4 program) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Should the decendents of slaves be paid for the work of their ancestors?

I don't see why my tax money should be used to repay a possible decendent of a slave that one of my ancesters may or may not have owned.

I like to think I'm a fair minded socialist but that program really made my blood boil! Anyone else watch it or have an opinion on reparations in general?

	16-08-2005 01:05									#2
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My family (going back a few centuries) were almost certainly indentured or otherwise serfs. I want my recompense too damnit!

	16-08-2005 01:07									#3
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My other half was getting wound up by the program, so we turned over.

I guess if slaves boosted the growth of our nation, then slavery probably helped create our high quality of life today.

	16-08-2005 01:07									#4
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It depends on how it's carried out. In the U.S., while most people think it simply means a check to each Black person, those promiting the idea are actually looking for programs to aid the poor.

The logic behind it is, that even if you or your ancesotrs didn't directly benefit from slavery, you indirectly benefited from the increase in general prosperity created by unpaid labor.

	16-08-2005 01:08									#5
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This question is mainly raised in US and UK. But how about Brazil? They imported more African slaves than any other country in the Americas. And there was a significant slave trade to the Arabic counties as well, through Zanzibar.

	16-08-2005 01:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It depends on how it's carried out. In the U.S., while most people think it simply means a check to each Black person, those promiting the idea are actually looking for programs to aid the poor. The logic behind it is, that even if you or your ancesotrs didn't directly benefit from slavery, you indirectly benefited from the increase in general prosperity created by unpaid labor.

Why not just spend more money on the poor generally?

	16-08-2005 01:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The logic behind it is, that even if you or your ancesotrs didn't directly benefit from slavery, you indirectly benefited from the increase in general prosperity created by unpaid labor.

That argument has about as much weight as the argument that by your ancestors being dragged to America from Africa you are better off - after all, would you rather be an American citizen or a citizen of Burkino Faso*?

*insert appropriate African country here.

	16-08-2005 01:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Why not just spend more money on the poor generally?

Helping the poor isn't in vogue anymore.

	16-08-2005 01:14									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty I guess if slaves boosted the growth of our nation, then slavery probably helped create our high quality of life today.

That the decendants of slaves are benefiting from as well.

But thats by the by, I just don't see why this generation is culpable for the actions of a previous generation or why the decendents of slaves should be the ones who recieve the reparations in any case.

	16-08-2005 01:20									#10
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Let's try another tack. Say your grandad stole something, and then your father inheritied it, and then you. Along comes a decendent of the person who originally owned it. They would be able to take you to court to get it back. This is what's happening with a lot of artwork looted by the Nazis. Getting recompense for unpaid labor is a similar principle.

	16-08-2005 01:26									#11
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Are you in favour Che?

	16-08-2005 01:28									#12
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I'm generally in favor of programs that help the poor. If it were a simple plan to hand out checks, I'd be opposed. Do I think that the unpaid labor of Blacks is somehow special and deserving of recompense, especialy when compared with all the rest of the crap people have had to put up with, no. On the other hand, in the U.S., we had Jim Crow, and for that, I think people do deserve recompense.

	16-08-2005 01:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Helping the poor isn't in vogue anymore.

Not through the government at least. Still a huge amount of private charity and volunteerism out there. Don't forget about that.

	16-08-2005 01:31									#14
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Donations to private charity have diminished considerably. If you are relying on private charity to make ends meet, you are one misstep from homelessness.

	16-08-2005 01:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It depends on how it's carried out. In the U.S., while most people think it simply means a check to each Black person, those promiting the idea are actually looking for programs to aid the poor. The logic behind it is, that even if you or your ancesotrs didn't directly benefit from slavery, you indirectly benefited from the increase in general prosperity created by unpaid labor.

Yeah, well, if we're going that route, the descendents of slaves themselves are undoubtedly better off than they would have been.

	16-08-2005 01:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let's try another tack. Say your grandad stole something, and then your father inheritied it, and then you. Along comes a decendent of the person who originally owned it. They would be able to take you to court to get it back. This is what's happening with a lot of artwork looted by the Nazis. Getting recompense for unpaid labor is a similar principle.

Can I apply to have all descendents of slaves who would otherwise not be in the country deported?

	16-08-2005 01:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let's try another tack. Say your grandad stole something, and then your father inheritied it, and then you. Along comes a decendent of the person who originally owned it. They would be able to take you to court to get it back. This is what's happening with a lot of artwork looted by the Nazis. Getting recompense for unpaid labor is a similar principle.

Thats my point, theres no proof my decendents did anything and theres not a great deal of proof to indicate which people should be given my money.

	16-08-2005 01:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yeah, well, if we're going that route, the descendents of slaves themselves are undoubtedly better off than they would have been.

Tha assumes that Africa would have been the pit of dispair it became after having tens of millions, maybe even 100 million people carted away between the 16th and 19th Centuries, whole kingdoms destroyed, societies completely disrupted.

	16-08-2005 01:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Can I apply to have all descendents of slaves who would otherwise not be in the country deported?

Join the BNP and have a go.

	16-08-2005 01:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Thats my point, theres no proof my decendents did anything and theres not a great deal of proof to indicate which people should be given my money.

Well, suppose you bought stolen goods. Under most legal systems, you'd have to return it to the original owner, even though you committed no crime.

	16-08-2005 01:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Join the BNP and have a go.

I think both ideas are totally ridiculous and undesirable. But way to go and miss my point.

	16-08-2005 01:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara maybe even 100 million

	16-08-2005 01:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, suppose you bought stolen goods. Under most legal systems, you'd have to return it to the original owner, even though you committed no crime.

Off on a tangent for a bit....

Does that apply to property seized by the Cuban gov after the revolution? Do the rightful owners (mainly American) get their stuff back after Castro finally dies?

	16-08-2005 01:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tha assumes that Africa would have been the pit of dispair it became after having tens of millions, maybe even 100 million people carted away between the 16th and 19th Centuries, whole kingdoms destroyed, societies completely disrupted.

A safe assumption IMHO. The whole idea that Africa had all these utopian kingdoms that the white man destroyed is a myth.

If reparations are to be paid shouldn't the decendants of the African and Arab slave masters have to pay up too?

	16-08-2005 01:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Off on a tangent for a bit.... Does that apply to property seized by the Cuban gov after the revolution? Do the rightful owners (mainly American) get their stuff back after Castro finally dies?

Under capitalism, yes. However, it is worth noting that the Cuban government did pay recompense at the time those industries were siezed. The owners just refused to be paid, since it was below market value (but at the value those companies had told the government for tax purposes).

	16-08-2005 01:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Under capitalism, yes. However, it is worth noting that the Cuban government did pay recompense at the time those industries were siezed. The owners just refused to be paid, since it was below market value (but at the value those companies had told the government for tax purposes).

I was curious how one of your political persuasion would answer that.

Thanx for playing along.

	16-08-2005 01:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever A safe assumption IMHO. The whole idea that Africa had all these utopian kingdoms that the white man destroyed is a myth.

I don't think anyone ever said they were utopian. However, as noted in the colonialism thread, they were a far sight better off then what came after. Slavery and colonialism destroyed Africa. Africa may not have become like Europe, but it probably wouldn't have been the basket case it is today.

	16-08-2005 01:58									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil I was curious how one of your political persuasion would answer that. Thanx for playing along.

No problem. Look, every civilization that has ever existed has relied on the unpaid labor of others, and includes outright theft in many cases. The decendents of slaves are little different from those decended from serfs, indentured servents, or early industrial workers. I do not believe that there should be any recompense for slavery. I am just trying to present the case for it in a logical and reasonable fashion, so that people don't simply dismiss it with arguments about lazy, greedy Blacks.

That said, I think former colonies certainly have a legal case against their former owners, and American Blacks have a case for recompense for Jim Crow. The question is whether or not it can be handled intelligently and in a way that redresses the evils of the past which linger on today. The point is to try and come up with programs that overcome the legacy of racism, so that minorities aren't disprortionately excluded from our societies.

	16-08-2005 02:01									#29
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Hm, dunno.

In the case of things "stolen", like property or land stolen (for example the land stolen from the indians), I´d think that it could and should also be given back to the descendants, unless of course, the thing happened in the distant past (I think it would be O.K. to give it back to children, grandchildren or grand-grand-children, but that would IMHO be the limit to give reparations for stolen property or land )
But in case of forced labor IMHO it´s too abstract. How do you measure the value of work? After all some slave owners used their slaves for great profit, while others made few or no profit at all with them (for example because the slaves where just used to keep the house clean).
There´s also the question, who should pay the reparations. The state profited only indirect from slavery (by taxes), but those who profited most were those people who bought or sold the slaves (which AFAIK wasn´t the state itself).
(Which is another difference to most of the cases where property or land was confiscated/stolen on a large scale, for example in case of Germany (Jews), USA (Indians) or USSR (Churches, Landowners))

And by using taxpayers money for the reparations, they would be paid by the descendants of those people who could afford slaves as well as descendants from those people who never ever had something to do with slavery (but often themselves were some kind of slave to industrie barons and had to work for low pay under harsh conditions)

	16-08-2005 02:02									#30
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Che,

So am I to pay up? Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots?

"Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.