22-08-2005 19:05									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Colleges don't have to dumb down material. They can flunk students. High schools can't do that because they will have a hoard of angry parents all over them like flies on ****.

Actually my friends who teach at colleges have told me stories about being under pressure from administrators to change grades due to pressure on them by parents.

It's disgusting - where is academic intergity those days?

From what I understand the only place college professors are 'safe' to grade whatever they wish is at a community college and I'm not even so sure about that.

	22-08-2005 19:32									#152
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College provides a few services.
1. It teaches a technical trade.
2. Or for those non technical it teaches a thinking process in research and analysis.

But the biggest service it does is gives you the code words for you to pretend to be educated at future work related functions. Those that can discuss the edges of the social sciences and turn their noses up at those that weren't educated to make themselves feel better about themselves. And it allows them to look at those that focused on the technical and avoided the social science, and just refer to them as abnormal geeks.

For some it just shows that you paid the money to join the club. And since it excludes a large part of the lower classes, so much the better.

Needless to say, I laugh a lot at Business parties.

	23-08-2005 05:19									#153
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quote: Rufus nailed it.

quote: It's disgusting - where is academic intergity those days?

The job market in academia, and especially the humanities, is very, very tight right now. Universities are letting more and more teaching be done by grad students, or by adjuncts (who are paid only $2-3k per course, and have no benefits package), or are increasing class size so that they don't have to hire anybody at all. So imagine you are one of the lucky ones who has a full-time academic job; sure, it probably pays less than the unionized bus drivers make in your town, but you went to school for a decade or more in the hopes that you could spend the rest of your life pursuing your arcane passion, and your dream is being realized. And now the pressure's on to pass a failing student.

You're going to invoke academic integrity? You're going to resign, and probably never find another job in your field? And then what -- go work at Barnes & Noble, where at least you get to be around your beloved books all day, while trying not to think about all the money and years you've just thrown away? But at least Billy Bob Bonehead didn't get an unearned grade in the Modern British Novel, eh?

I don't think so.

	23-08-2005 07:00									#154
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There is grade inflation even in the places that get to chose their own students and pay their professors 100,000 a year plus.

Don't you guys remember the scandal at Harvard when a professor protested what he saw a rampant grade inflation by giving students two grades, the Harvard grade and the grade he thought they actually deserved?

	23-08-2005 10:18									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander After reading this a couple of times I think I understand what you're trying to say, though really the whole thing needs a rewriting. I think you are correct that now (my post was about 20-50 years ago but nevermind that for the moment) a lot of people are getting into teaching as a second career etc., which theoretically should / has improved teacher quality. But it is most certainly not a wash. Our economy will never again be able to manipulate the talents of more than half the population so that they are left with only a few realistic choices for the educated amongst them. Good and talented people will be drawn to teaching as they always have, but they will no longer to be forced by necessity. In short you are wrong, incapable of following what someone else has written and incapable yourself of writing something that can be readily understand. You're a perfect poster child for the decline of American K-12 education in the latter half of the 20th century.

You also ignore the fact that most women stayed home in the past. Now most women are in the workforce, thus increasing the number of available women overall.

In short your theory is nothing more than speculation based on nothing.

I like your insults though.

	23-08-2005 10:34									#156
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quote: But the biggest service it does is gives you the code words for you to pretend to be educated at future work related functions. Those that can discuss the edges of the social sciences and turn their noses up at those that weren't educated to make themselves feel better about themselves. And it allows them to look at those that focused on the technical and avoided the social science, and just refer to them as abnormal geeks.

Yeah, that's what I found plenty of at the higher levels of my so-called 'education'. I particularly noticed my own writing class where in our final exam, we were all called to discuss the piece of writing that most impacted our theory. I ended up discussing Twain, and the beauty of simple language to convey thoughts and ideas. Needless to say, I did not pass the course.

	23-08-2005 10:39									#157
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quote: You're going to invoke academic integrity? You're going to resign, and probably never find another job in your field? And then what -- go work at Barnes & Noble, where at least you get to be around your beloved books all day, while trying not to think about all the money and years you've just thrown away? But at least Billy Bob Bonehead didn't get an unearned grade in the Modern British Novel, eh?

As the saying goes, you can't eat integrity. That's because it cannot be bought, sold, obtained or procured for any cost.

	23-08-2005 11:04									#158
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we're talking about apple and oranges here.

I didn't realise it at the time but I got a pretty solid classical liberal Arts education. There was a lot of mentoring and social contact with the teaching staff. It was subtle but they helped us a lot, including into careers, gently guiding us towards a future. My faculty had a talent spotting role I later found out.

Today its completely different - the degree factory has taken over. Class sizes and workloads make that kind of teacher student relationship simply impossible I'm told.

I think its a shame - university used to be a wholistic experience.

	23-08-2005 21:38									#159
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I think this fits in with the discussion:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4172504.stm

The only problem i can see with the article is it may, like much of american opinion, be playing the party politics game(Rep vs Dem). Still is bush anti-science or merely being selective, based on public opinion, with the siences government endorses? +What bearing is this likely to have on the education system in the US?

	23-08-2005 21:42									#160
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quote: e're talking about apple and oranges here. I didn't realise it at the time but I got a pretty solid classical liberal Arts education. There was a lot of mentoring and social contact with the teaching staff. It was subtle but they helped us a lot, including into careers, gently guiding us towards a future. My faculty had a talent spotting role I later found out. Today its completely different - the degree factory has taken over. Class sizes and workloads make that kind of teacher student relationship simply impossible I'm told. I think its a shame - university used to be a wholistic experience.

I don't know how it is in other departments, but in chemistry, especially in the advanced labs, each T.A. instructs a group of 2-3 students. The approach is very personal, and work in the lab, due to it's nature, includes many periods of discussions and talk about both professional issues, organic synthesis, and general chatter. This way a relatively strong tutor-student connection is established.

	23-08-2005 22:32									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly If a school is so good that it can pick and choose its students, then handing out F's is no problem. But farther down the educational ladder, it's a buyers market, and if you're liberally handing out the F's, you will hear about it.

That's just not my perception. College enrollment seems to be very strong. Maybe that's just my college, but you have more experience so I won't argue with you.