21-08-2005 03:55									#61
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The only people who love that sort of education are the ones who would take those sort of classes anyway. There's very little point in studying something if it is uninteresting and not useful.

For me, the freedom to choose the courses I want is a very large consideration in which colleges I want to go to.

	21-08-2005 04:00									#62
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Actually, there is quite a great deal of use studying things you are unfamiliar with.

But your attitude about the point of a higher education is the most common and popular one now, and also the one which I think invalidates the point of most people going to 4 year institutions.

It would be of more use to everybody to make most "colleges" nothing more then job preparation academies, because it seems that is what most people want. Save a real education for the few who actually want it.

	21-08-2005 04:07									#63
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BS.

Say someone wants to, for instance, do physics research. There's no particular reason he needs a broad background. However, this person CERTAINLY should go to college and then on to graduate school, even though he's doing it just as "job preparation".

Face it, the point of education - of all education - is to acquire useful skills and knowledge.

	21-08-2005 04:19									#64
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this is why arts graduates rule the world and people like Kuci end up being our minions and technicians

	21-08-2005 04:24									#65
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I'm not planning on doing that

I want to double major in CS and Psychology, and get an MBA. NWIH would I ever do research for a living

	21-08-2005 04:36									#66
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you know those people you see on campus supporting radical left wing causes, protesting against globalisation etc.? They're the ones who end up captains of industry, CEO's and top government officials

	21-08-2005 04:38									#67
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Or they end up like Sava. I'll pass

	21-08-2005 04:40									#68
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Since when are highly educated people the ones that rule the world?

That is the fiction that is hurting education- people think being educated mean being successful. That is not true, being successful is based on ambition and creativity, both things that are not taught academically in any way, which is why its a waste to give so many people an education they have no need or interest in.

So, let those who want to be rich get their asses into the working world now, and stop ruining education for those who actually want it.

	21-08-2005 04:41									#69
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You wait - Sava will probably turn into some sort of ultra conservative pillar of the community and you'll have to call him "sir".

	21-08-2005 04:42									#70
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IŽd rather call Sir a blister

	21-08-2005 04:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Since when are highly educated people the ones that rule the world? That is the fiction that is hurting education- people think being educated mean being successful. That is not true, being successful is based on ambition and creativity, both things that are not taught academically in any way, which is why its a waste to give so many people an education they have no need or interest in. So, let those who want to be rich get their asses into the working world now, and stop ruining education for those who actually want it.

Who are you talking to?

I'm waiting for you to address my post.

	21-08-2005 04:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Since when are highly educated people the ones that rule the world?

They don't. But education is a condition of entry to the club.

The best education teaches people to be self aware and critical thinkers.

	21-08-2005 04:52									#73
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MOst people don't gain any useful skills or ideas in college, certainly not ones that will help them in their careers for ever.

As for people going into the sciences (a small minority), obviously in depth training and teaching is required above and beyond what they get in high school. The problem is that the university system has not yet farmed out the theoretical sciences like it has the practical side of science (like engineering) because of historical association. I personally value a true liberal education and think it worthy of anyone who wants to go into the hard sciences should get one, but that does not mean that letting people interested in the sciences skip everything else should be a mantra used with other majors in college that are far less streneous.

	21-08-2005 04:55									#74
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Why not?

	21-08-2005 04:56									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse They don't. But education is a condition of entry to the club. The best education teaches people to be self aware and critical thinkers.

Since when? Education as a sign of class and status might be necessary for the club, yes, but what you actually learn is usually immaterial. Getting a degree today is like what having a nice wig before used to be, a sign of social position. JUst as back then, whatever is in the head matters not.

I went to a prestigious university filled with critical thinkers, and far more people for whom a good debate started and ended with sports and women (or men), but never delved into anything too "intellectual", cause that was boring.

	21-08-2005 04:57									#76
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Anyway, how is more choice in the curriculum ruining things for anyone? If you want to take a solid liberal arts education, choose those classes.

	21-08-2005 05:02									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why not?

Because most majors out there are in themselves not sufficient to really fill 4 years worth of in-depth study, at least not what they teach you in order to get a bachelors.

For example, in my university undergrads and grads took many classes together, because those classes met the same requirements for study. Honestly then, why would any grad student be taking a course that an undergrad is taking, unless in the end the difference between a bachelors and a doctorate is not as wide as you would think, when it comes to the actual material involved.

In most humanities and social sciences I think having student go in right from high school and then work say 6 years and have them come out with a PhD would work just fine,, with the last few years being mostly the heavy spade work of research for disertations.That woudl of course require that basic writing and researching skills and critical thinking had already been taught in high school. Sadly, that is not the case.

	21-08-2005 05:04									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Anyway, how is more choice in the curriculum ruining things for anyone? If you want to take a solid liberal arts education, choose those classes.

If you haven't been educated, how do you know what classes you should be taking? It becomes an issue of knowing what choices would be the best. I have problems equatin education with consumer purchases, and the fetish of choice.

	21-08-2005 05:05									#79
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quote: Originally posted by GePap MOst people don't gain any useful skills or ideas in college, certainly not ones that will help them in their careers for ever.

yes i can believe that

	21-08-2005 05:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Because most majors out there are in themselves not sufficient to really fill 4 years worth of in-depth study, at least not what they teach you in order to get a bachelors. For example, in my university undergrads and grads took many classes together, because those classes met the same requirements for study. Honestly then, why would any grad student be taking a course that an undergrad is taking, unless in the end the difference between a bachelors and a doctorate is not as wide as you would think, when it comes to the actual material involved. In most humanities and social sciences I think having student go in right from high school and then work say 6 years and have them come out with a PhD would work just fine,, with the last few years being mostly the heavy spade work of research for disertations.That woudl of course require that basic writing and researching skills and critical thinking had already been taught in high school. Sadly, that is not the case.

not at all true in physics

JM

	21-08-2005 05:06									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller not at all true in physics JM

Which is why I mention humanities and social sciences, and not theoretical sciences, which is part of the discussion with Kuci.

	21-08-2005 05:15									#82
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I'm going to Korea next week. Last Wednesday I went around and saw my big boss and asked him if he wanted to see me before I went. He said yes, let's do it now. He rattled off all the ground and expectations, the questions that needed answering, the things to find out. I took about 4 pages of notes.

That's my brief for next 3 years. They didn't ask me how I'd do it, that's up to me.

	21-08-2005 05:23									#83
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so are you like 007?

you get instuctions to go take over korea, then head out with a briefcase?

JM

	21-08-2005 05:28									#84
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There was mention of the evil doctor Kimchee who has taken over an island just inside North Korea's territorial waters and is building a secret base - but I can't talk about that

	21-08-2005 05:30									#85
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btw, I think you deleted my account on PROT
JM

	21-08-2005 05:32									#86
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no I didn't - register again

	21-08-2005 05:37									#87
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DanSer

JM
(is cleverer now though)

	21-08-2005 05:39									#88
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tee hee

	21-08-2005 05:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If you haven't been educated, how do you know what classes you should be taking?

There's a reason God invented student advisors.

It's also pretty obvious from the course names...

	21-08-2005 05:47									#90
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there is a possibility I just don't remember the password anymore

JM