17-08-2005 23:12									#1
	Going to college unready for it Got spare money?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/17/e...artner=homepage

quote: Many Going to College Are Not Ready, Report Says By TAMAR LEWIN Published: August 17, 2005 Only about half of this year's high school graduates have the reading skills they need to succeed in college, and even fewer are prepared for college-level science and math courses, according to a yearly report from ACT, which produces one of the nation's leading college admissions tests. The report, based on scores of the 2005 high school graduates who took the exam, some 1.2 million students in all, also found that fewer than one in four met the college-readiness benchmarks in all four subjects tested: reading comprehension, English, math and science. "It is very likely that hundreds of thousands of students will have a disconnect between their plans for college and the cold reality of their readiness for college," Richard L. Ferguson, chief executive of ACT, said in an online news conference yesterday. ACT sets its college-readiness benchmarks - including the reading comprehension benchmark, which is new this year - by correlating earlier students' ACT scores with grades they actually received as college freshmen. Based on that data, the benchmarks indicate the skill level at which a student has a 70 percent likelihood of earning a C or better, and a 50 percent chance of earning a B or better. Among those who took the 2005 test, only 51 percent achieved the benchmark in reading, 26 percent in science, and 41 percent in math; the figure for English was 68 percent. Results from the new optional ACT writing test, which was not widely taken this year, were not included in the report. About 40 percent of the nation's 2005 high school graduates took the ACT, and the average overall score, 20.9 of a possible 36, was unchanged from the year before. But Dr. Ferguson found it heartening that scores were holding even, given that the pool of test takers had become so much larger and more diverse, in part because both Illinois and Colorado now use the ACT to test all students, even those who do not see themselves as college-bound. Minority students now make up 27 percent of all ACT test takers, up from 24 percent in the class of 2001. The number of Hispanic test takers has grown 40 percent in that period, and the number of African-American test takers 23 percent. Caucasians taking the test have increased by only 2 percent. "It's wonderful that more and more students who might not have considered college several years ago are now making plans for education beyond high school," Dr. Ferguson said. But it is a source of concern, he said, that too many students are not taking the kind of rigorous high school courses that will prepare them for college. In fact, only 56 percent of this year's graduates who took the ACT had completed the recommended core curriculum for college-bound students: four years of English and three years each of social studies, science and math at the level of algebra or higher. Those who do complete the core curriculum are far more likely to meet college readiness standards, Dr. Ferguson said, but the percentage who complete that core has been falling. "The message doesn't seem to be getting though," he said. The ACT report highlighted other worrisome trends as well, including a continuing decline in the percentage of students planning to major in engineering, computer science and education. And at a time when more women than men go to college, Dr. Ferguson said, it is also a matter of concern that 56 percent of this year's graduates who took the ACT were female, and only 44 percent male. As in previous years, men had higher average math and science scores, and women higher averages scores in English and reading.

Pretty sad.

	17-08-2005 23:15									#2
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You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results. Is there anything these people can do right?

	17-08-2005 23:21									#3
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I think most schools dumb down their stuff.

Granted, I did not go to a typical public high school, but there are newer schools in NYC that built themselves up to the same level of excellence without the same strict type of weeding out, but by building strong curriculums.

In college I chose the easy sciences route (since the real science classes were a bit too much for my general interests in the matter) and what is sad is that my basic biology classes were a rehash of my freshman biology classes in HS (actually, less intensive in many ways) yet so many of my fellows at this top 20 private university were clueless.

	17-08-2005 23:25									#4
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Yeah my high school had a very rigorous curriculum and our teachers expected a lot from us. The result - I breezed through college, it was years of partying for me.

	17-08-2005 23:27									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Yeah my high school had a very rigorous curriculum and our teachers expected a lot from us. The result - I breezed through college, it was years of partying for me.

Yeah, the entire education system is kinda in shambles, IMHO.

	17-08-2005 23:27									#6
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I don't remember my college days... got a fancy diploma though

	17-08-2005 23:28									#7
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In certain states, like Illinois, all high school students take the test regardless if they intend to go to further. (they're supposed to anyway) Their scores shouldn't count against the average since most of them really don't care what they score. Some don't even bother filling out the answer sheet completely or just mark answers without reading the questions.

And sometimes it's not the school but the attitude of the student that counts. A good student will find a way to succeed at a below average school. A bad student will fail no matter how good the school is.

	17-08-2005 23:51									#8
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I'd imagine in Iowa all they do is take standard tests. But then again people have told me my views on Iowa are a bit askew.

	18-08-2005 00:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think most schools dumb down their stuff.

Yep.

I think the problem is that school district policy is made by a democratically elected school board instead of by experts and other people with experience in education (all the people in my hometown's school board are average Joe and Janes). the result is that the school board does what is good for pleasing the parents (like dumbing down the curricula because they are afraid of angery parents screaming that thier wonderful child couldn't possibly as bad of a student as that F says he/she is ) so it's members will be re-elected, not for doing what is best for the kids. It is a general problem that there are too many positions in local government that are filled by election when appointment by merit would be better (*insert obligatory dog-catcher joke*).

	18-08-2005 00:20									#10
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When 75% of the student make the honor roll, it ceases to be an honor.

	18-08-2005 00:30									#11
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I don't know, from the little entrance test of mathematical skills they told me I shouldn't have taken Calculus immediately, but I did it and got my B.

	18-08-2005 08:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by rah When 75% of the student make the honor roll, it ceases to be an honor.

Just move the goal line further then.

	18-08-2005 08:45									#13
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Hey, I'm glad, it makes it easier for me to get into a good college

	18-08-2005 08:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results. Is there anything these people can do right?

Well, Alberta students rate highest in maths across Canada and our education system was recently "fixed" by a conservative government. IIRC Saskatchewan ranks near the bottom, with a socialist government.

Maybe the problem has to do with dumb Americans who enjoy Michael Moore films?

	18-08-2005 08:58									#15
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If anything, Michael Moore himself is a victim of the poor emphasis on analysis in high schools.

	18-08-2005 09:03									#16
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quote: Originally posted by rah When 75% of the student make the honor roll, it ceases to be an honor.

Amen

	18-08-2005 09:13									#17
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The real problem is that too many students are going to college. I suspect that for most of American history, most high school students have graduated without the skills required for college. But now, because we no longer have an economy that can absorb them without more education, they're all cluttering up classrooms. Of course, we also have too many damned colleges, so there will always be someplace willing to stoop to accepting the unprepared.

	18-08-2005 09:13									#18
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Rufus gets it

	18-08-2005 09:31									#19
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I think the US could benefit from a system closer to the Gemrna model were not all students go to a University, but that places students in different tracks based on apptitude and choice. I think many people going to college do it simply because they believe work without a college degree is impossible. And they are probably right.

That said, I still think American high schools dumb things down too many times, and I agree that education should be in the hands of experts, not parental boards.

	18-08-2005 09:37									#20
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In Arkansas, at least in theory, teachers get a huge binder full of specific things that students must know before the end of the year, and the teaching of these things is documented and all objectives are checked off by the end of the year.

Of course, you can't make it foolproof in reality, but education has improved, and as we throw more money at it, it will get better.

quote: Of course, we also have too many damned colleges, so there will always be someplace willing to stoop to accepting the unprepared.

How many colleges should there be? What makes a college unworthy of being there?

EDIT: Just to clear things up - the binder of objectives that gets thrown at teachers is from the state Department of Education, which is generally filled with eggheads and brainiacs appointed by merit.

	18-08-2005 09:45									#21
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell How many colleges should there be? What makes a college unworthy of being there?

As many as you need to educate your college-ready population.

In fairness, the problem is perhaps not the number of colleges, but the number of seats they need to fill -- which amounts to the same thing. College enrollment expanded dramatically during the baby boom, both for demographic reasons and because being in college kept young men out of Vietnam. The problem is, once colleges got used to those huge numbers, they were reluctant to shrink again. The result is a need to accept students who are not equipped fro college, and wouldn't have been accepted at one even a generation ago.

	18-08-2005 10:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results. Is there anything these people can do right?

Demonizing others and blaming "them" for everything, especially when it's the conservatives' own doing.

	18-08-2005 11:12									#23
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Here's an idea - if high school isn't teaching anything and everyone needs a college degree, why not compress the lack of curriculum into 9 years, and have people go to college after junior high?

There is a similar system in most of Asia. High school requires an entrance exam, and you can choose to go to any high school as long as you qualify, as in do better than everyone else who wants to go to that school.

Not surprisingly, these students have skills at 9th grade equal to 12th in America. When they graduate from high school they beat our college students. Their college students fill about 1/2 the graduate positions in our universities, more in the sciences.

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Meanwhile, in the good ol USA, junior high students waste three years learning about gangs, drugs, sex, and football.

Is it any wonder that we end up with the gang, drug, sex, and football industries while high tech jobs go overseas?

	18-08-2005 12:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results. Is there anything these people can do right?

Wrong. Educational test results dropped regularly for over a decade for people born between 1952-1963. After that they more or less stabilized with no discernable long term trend. The drop was so precipitous that there is little doubt that a number of factors were at work, from the lowering of teacher quality due to increased opportunities for women in the workplace to the huge amount of increased stress on families as the divorce rate rose to 50% to the rise of television and the decline of reading, to the steady increase in the numbers of Americans for whom english is a second language.

	18-08-2005 12:42									#25
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I have heard it mentioned that our primary schools still outperform almost all other countries (except for a second language).

Our college system is still the best in the world.

But our high schools just completely suck.

So the front and the back of the education system still works well but the middle is lacking.

And stop blaming teachers again Sikander.

	18-08-2005 12:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly The real problem is that too many students are going to college. I suspect that for most of American history, most high school students have graduated without the skills required for college. But now, because we no longer have an economy that can absorb them without more education, they're all cluttering up classrooms. Of course, we also have too many damned colleges, so there will always be someplace willing to stoop to accepting the unprepared.

I agree completely. Actually I think the real problem is the emphasis people place on getting a 4 year degree when for most people a life long learning concept where people learn only the skills they need as they need them would be a better plan. (I of course don't object to people taking electives which interest them as well.) We should start reducing the amount of money we are pouring into 4 year institutions and instead make sure that we have quality community colleges nationwide.

Like several others I was often disappointed that many of my college courses were weaker than my high school courses, even though it usually meant an easy A for me.

	18-08-2005 23:35									#27
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quote: Like several others I was often disappointed that many of my college courses were weaker than my high school courses, even though it usually meant an easy A for me.

It's very discouraging.

	19-08-2005 00:13									#28
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	19-08-2005 00:22									#29
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I think the problem is that many students don't drink enough in high school, therefore when they reach college they are unprepared for the demands that meet them there. If every high school had a bar across the street, then students would learn how to pass tests after an all-night bender.

	19-08-2005 00:57									#30
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Personally, I think it's more attitude and behavior than anything. When I first got to college a few years back it was surprising to see how many people would skip class, fail to do their work and simply not care about how well they did. I suppose that's what happens when a sizable chunk of the population finds college a good excuse to party all the time.