26-08-2005 21:03									#151
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just read the Larry King transcript and to sum up

1. Armstrong vehemently continues to claim that he is and was always clean. ( As a side note he apparently took EPO in 1996 as part of his cancer treatements but that was always known and would have had no impacts in 1999)

2. He disputes the results and essentially claims he was set up. As he put it "there was no EPO when I peed in a bottle"

3. He questions the ethics of the whole thing where a newspaper gets involved like this.

4. He asked people to consider that he was FASTER in 2001 after there was an EPO test than he had been in 1999.

5. He reiterated that he was the most tested athlete in sport. They showed up out of season or in season to test him in Austin, New York etc etc

THats his story and he appears to be sticking with it

	26-08-2005 22:11									#152
	Put an end to popups!

IMO most ciclist (even most athletes) do cheat if there is money at play, the point is that if nobody catch him they dont.

I always found Armstrong style evolution curious to say the least. Before cancer his style was similar to other riders but after the ill he began to pedaling at a much higher cadency moving less "weight" each time. It seems that after chemotherapy he lost about seven kilos of muscles so the couldnt apply so much brute force anymore. But in change, through some mysterious training method he managed to reach and keep a pedaling cadency much higher than any other rider.

His new style required less powerfull legs but more capable heart and lungs. However Armstrong heart and lungs are nothing out of normal (for a professional cyclist of course). Small compared for instance to the ones of Indurain (Indurain has huge heart and lungs, his heart beats about 25-30 times per minute), however Indurain pedaling cadency is/was at a normal level. So is there a secret involved in all this history? Maybe but without proves...

	28-08-2005 18:19									#153
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Jean-Marie Leblanc, chief organizer of the Tour, is now backing the tests carried out and the evidence against Armstrong. Leblanc is reported as saying that Armstrong is bound to be suspected of having been doped in the other races after 1999 as well.

	28-08-2005 18:54									#154
	Tired of ads?

just as OJ was guilty...

Lance is guilty...

Lanceophiles should get their heads out of the sand.

This is not a debate.

6 tests all test positive for EPO.

Case closed.

	28-08-2005 19:05									#155
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Winston Leblanc is reported as saying that Armstrong is bound to be suspected of having been doped in the other races after 1999 as well.

The wounded French pride is pathetic.

	28-08-2005 19:05									#156
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Lance ass-licking is pathetic

	28-08-2005 19:09									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It's time to come out of the closet Sava. The constant gay sex references only serve to highlight a represed part of your psyche.

	28-08-2005 20:29									#158
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

not a gay-sex reference... Lance just happens to be a guy... if it were a female cyclist, I would have said the same thing... also, my comment is not directed at males only.

perhaps you're the one thinking about gay sex

plus, you can check my pr0n collection if you want

	28-08-2005 22:18									#159
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Given that juicing is rampant in cycling, it's impossible that LA could have been so successful without juicing, himself. Top level athletes in a particular sport are pretty much evenly matched in skill/stamina, so if LA wasn't cheating, he'd be finishing, oh, 143rd in the TDF. Even if juicing only gave the cheater a 5% advantage, that would be enough.

Two things stand in the way of accepting this:

1. LA is an feel-good story. A lot of people don't want to sully this, so they go into a bit of denial.

2. Yank and Euro pride. If there wasn't so much of both at stake here, we'd all be more rational. If LA had won the Tour De Wisconsin 7 straight times against Americans (instead of the TDF against mainly Europeans) his defenders and detractors would be far fewer. No one would care.

	06-09-2005 21:58									#160
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, well, well...

quote: Washington - Seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong is considering coming out of retirement in a bid to take revenge on the hosts of the world's biggest race following a spate of doping accusations, an Austin, Texas newspaper reported on Tuesday. "I'm thinking about it," the Austin American-Statesman quoted Armstrong as saying. "I'm thinking it's the best way to piss (the French) off."

	06-09-2005 22:03									#161
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That would be delicious.

Lance.

	06-09-2005 22:05									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It's funny how Lance was all "VIVA LE FRANCE" when he was winning titles. But the second he gets proven a GUILTY CHEATER DOPER, he falls back on french bashing.

that's known as ad hominem debate fallacy... he can't counter the FACT that he's a CHEATER so he bashes the french...

way to go Lance Proving my point for me

edit: I'm sure he's got all new undetectable roids and blood doping agents he can PWN the other cyclists with too

having the best chemists money can buy

	06-09-2005 22:08									#163
	Get a bigger avatar today!

FYI, the paper inserted "(the French)". That's what the parentheses mean. Armstrong may have been bashing particular Frenchmen rather than the French as a people.

	06-09-2005 22:21									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DanS FYI, the paper inserted "(the French)". That's what the parentheses mean. Armstrong may have been bashing particular Frenchmen rather than the French as a people.

well I wasn't just referring to that... since this whole thing got started, Lance has fallen back on French bashing.

And why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is? Where is the lawsuit? It's the same with steroids and Jose Canseco's book. Not one player has sued Canseco.

Funny, if someone accused me publicly of cheating and tarnished my reputation, you bet your ass I'd sue the **** outta them!

But Lance says he hasn't the time or the money. Uhmmm... he's retired and made a gazillion dollars. Sorry, that's the lamest excuse in the world.

I think Lance is a smart guy. I know why he's not suing. He knows his hardcore fans are drinking the kool-aid and don't care if he's caught on videotape injecting himself with whatever. And conversely, he knows many people will not believe him no matter what. And I must admit, even if these French allegations prove to be false, I'll still have suspicions.

So from Lance's POV, he's got his money, he's got his trophies, he's got his rock and roll hosebag wife, why bother with the effort of suing the French newspaper or lab? Even though I hate Lance and think he's a cheating piece of ****, I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in his position.

	07-09-2005 04:59									#165
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava . And I must admit, even if these French allegations prove to be false, I'll still have suspicions.

Hmm -- that says it about where you stand

I'm still waiting to understand how these french scientists could test for EPO accurately with 6 year old urine when the main doping scientist in Canada says that after 3 months the sample would degrade too much

	07-09-2005 05:06									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Winston Jean-Marie Leblanc, chief organizer of the Tour, is now backing the tests carried out and the evidence against Armstrong. Leblanc is reported as saying that Armstrong is bound to be suspected of having been doped in the other races after 1999 as well.

This is little suprise since the Tour organizers are organizationally linked with the paper that broke the story.

Lance has been suspected from the time he won his first tour. The theory was that no one can be better than others by that much so he had to be doping.

I don't buy that argument. First of all, Lance Armstrong was not much better than everyone else over a cycling season. he trained specifically for this event in a scientific way in ways no one else did. Other cyclists were busting their guts in the weeks leading up to the tour in a way Lance Armstrong never did. He had a focus on the Tour that really NONE of the other contenders matched.

heck Ullrich was overweight at the start of a couple of seasons so for him to be competitive he muct be juiced -- x and y rode the tour de italia and then competed well-- juiced I say

Guess what-- maybe they are still all juiced-- I don't know. But the mere fact that someone wins something can't be your evidence . . . . Particularly when most of the competition don't even train in the same way

	07-09-2005 05:13									#167
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Interesting news related to this: Belgian scientist Bart Landuyt has found that the modern EPO tests are sensitive to error. Natural proteine can be seen as EPO with the modern tests.

Of course, World Anti-Doping Agency has no intentions to change its testing policy

	07-09-2005 05:20									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Flubber This is little suprise since the Tour organizers are organizationally linked with the paper that broke the story.

Sometimes, parts of an organization disagree with each other.

Generally speaking, Leblanc has always avoided to pour oil on the fire in the situations where guilt wasn't absolutely proven. As the director of the tour, his wants his event not to be tarnished. If too many regular joes begin to think that the Tour is a competiotn between the best druggies, instead of the best athletes, it'll lose quite a bit of audience. As such, Leblanc fights against the image that "they're all drugged anyway".

Should it be proven that Armstrong has been drugged, it would seriously hurt the Tour's image, especially in countries where people are naive


As to l'Equipe: Its article was all the rage in the French press for days. I bet the article provided for some very big sales, and for a significant boost of image among the French audience. No surprise that they'd publish their scoop so aggressively.

	07-09-2005 05:26									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Interesting news related to this: Belgian scientist Bart Landuyt has found that the modern EPO tests are sensitive to error. Natural proteine can be seen as EPO with the modern tests. Of course, World Anti-Doping Agency has no intentions to change its testing policy

hmm source?? I'm curious if the "false positives" would be more or less likely if the test was carried out in 6 year old urine.

	07-09-2005 05:32									#170
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The TdF is already in some organizing trouble, because of their dispute with the ProTour. The French farkers at ASO think they are a whole lot as organizers of some prestigious races, as demonstrated by comments by that chief arsehole LeBlanc: "[..]without ASO, the Pro Tour will mean nothing".

But they tend to forget that it's the riders that make the races, not the organizing committees.

	07-09-2005 05:34									#171
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Flubber hmm source?? I'm curious if the "false positives" would be more or less likely if the test was carried out in 6 year old urine.

I can't find an English version of the story. I read it in two articles of the leading Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad:

http://www.nrc.nl/sport/artikel/1125985133328.html

http://www.nrc.nl/sport/artikel/1125985132775.html

	07-09-2005 05:35									#172
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Spiffor

Lance is big news in France. I don't blame any journalist for running a sensational story. I do query how they could ever have gotten access to the results and documentation.

I also agree that organizations can disagree within themselves. I just find that more frequently, they try to be consistent.

I'm still waiting to see how this all comes out. I'm not naive but in the absence of FIRM evidence, I choose to believe that athletes are "clean".

	07-09-2005 17:52									#173
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh and I was hearing more about Armstrong feeling motivated to come back for a new Tour. While I think he should retire and get on with his life, there is part of me that wishes that he would invite a team of L'Equipe journalists to live with him for a year so that they can monitor every substance that enters his body and take urine every day. Then he would go out and ride faster/harder than ever before and win by his widest margin ever. THAT would be lovely to see. A champion coming back out of pure spite for his detractors

People seem to believe that the dopers are always way ahead of the testers. That may be true. Something like the above may be the only way you could ever PROVE you were clean.

	07-09-2005 18:14									#174
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Oh and I was hearing more about Armstrong feeling motivated to come back for a new Tour. While I think he should retire and get on with his life, there is part of me that wishes that he would invite a team of L'Equipe journalists to live with him for a year so that they can monitor every substance that enters his body and take urine every day. Then he would go out and ride faster/harder than ever before and win by his widest margin ever. THAT would be lovely to see. A champion coming back out of pure spite for his detractors People seem to believe that the dopers are always way ahead of the testers. That may be true. Something like the above may be the only way you could ever PROVE you were clean.

Even if he does and he's clean... I'm reminded of the famous phrase. Even if you win the Special Olympics, you're still a retard.

(referring to Lance, not you Flubs )

	07-09-2005 18:58									#175
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I looked at the technical aspects of the EPO test and IMO (as a scientist who uses similar tests) the results are rubbish since the test is extremely subjective.

Compounding the technical limitations of the test itself, one can ask how the a decision of a positive doping result could be announced (even unofficially) when 6 of his 12 samples were negative for EPO and 6 were positive?

The whole thing stinks of French bullshit!

	07-09-2005 19:06									#176
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sava Even if he does and he's clean... I'm reminded of the famous phrase. Even if you win the Special Olympics, you're still a retard.

Is that supposed to mean that even if Lance Armstrong rode faster than ever in a situation where it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to be doping, you would still believe he was doping before. That makes no sense. The whole argument about Lance came about because people think no one can win without doping. Isn't the idea that it is undisputed that doping helps performance?

Put more simply Sava, is there anything that could ever make you believe an athlete is clean?

You talked about blinders and heads in sand . . . I don't reject the idea that the whole lot are doping . . . I simply give the benefit of the doubt until there is proof. Is your attitude as open or is your head in the sand wrt the POSSIBILITY that Armstrong could be clean?

	07-09-2005 19:15									#177
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I didnt' say I would 100% believe he would always be guilty.
I said I would have suspicions.

To be honest, the whole steroid thing in baseball soured me on professional athletes. I can't trust them anymore.

I'd like to have an open mind. But the nature of the "sport" (and I use that term loosely with cycling) is what gets my critical side going.

Cycling isn't an an activity where "skill" is involved. It's about physical endurance. Plain and simple. And when one athlete simply dominates the way Lance has, I have to wonder sometimes. Is Lance the only guy in the world capable of training hard enough to last in a tough endurance competition? Somehow I don't believe this.

It's not like this is baseball and he's Babe Ruth. He's not like Wayne Gretzky where he's blessed with all this skill. Cycling is about endurance.

Sure, it's possible that Lance trains harder than everyone else and has done all this legitimately. But it's just hard to believe that nobody else in the cycling world can come close to competing with him.

Look at the Olympics. Every once in a while, an athlete comes around and dominates in an event. But VERY VERY rarely does one athlete completely dominate in an endurance event for such a long time... and by such a large margin.

And my gut tells me, when something very improbable happens, there's probably something fishy going on.

	07-09-2005 19:20									#178
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I looked at the technical aspects of the EPO test and IMO (as a scientist who uses similar tests) the results are rubbish since the test is extremely subjective. Compounding the technical limitations of the test itself, one can ask how the a decision of a positive doping result could be announced (even unofficially) when 6 of his 12 samples were negative for EPO and 6 were positive? The whole thing stinks of French bullshit!

Thank you!

	07-09-2005 20:06									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: [SIZE=1]Compounding the technical limitations of the test itself, one can ask how the a decision of a positive doping result could be announced (even unofficially) when 6 of his 12 samples were negative for EPO and 6 were positive?

AFAIK, these were different samples. The lab didn't just take one sample of Lance's urine, and then divided it in 12, in order to see the repeatability of the method.

IIRC, the lab took 12 different urine samples from various 1999 runners, and according to L'Equipe, 3 of them were Lance's. On the 12 tested samples, 6 of them were positive, including the 3 from Lance.
Edit: made a mistake on the numbers, but it doesn't go against the spirit of what I wrote. On the samples the lab analysed (from various runners), 12 were positive, including 6 from Armstrong.

Now, I'm not a biologist and I cannot comment on the test's subjectivity. But the sampling seems to be a wrong angle of attack.

	07-09-2005 21:08									#180
	Full PM-box? Change here!

They don't do just one test, IIRC. They test on entry and multiple times during the TdF.