25-08-2005 03:27									#121
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yall are kidding yourselves

	25-08-2005 03:37									#122
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So everybody is lying. Including people saying that he was actually injecting stuff in his arms and legs

	25-08-2005 03:41									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Every top level cyclist these days is juicing. I've seldom been more certain of anything in my life. And I'm baffled that other people continue to pretend those aren't the realities.

Yup, that's pretty amazing.

Even if Lance's dope becomes absolutely proven, I guess there will be staunch resistance by people who wanted to believe in him as well as in other athletes. It looks like a pretty ordinary occurence: there have been numerous examples of mass-scale foolings that could occur only because the people wanted to believe in the lie.

	25-08-2005 03:48									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit So everybody is lying. Including people saying that he was actually injecting stuff in his arms and legs

I believe that there are any number of types of injections that are legal and which can be beneficial. So I see nothing suprising in athletes having syringes

Who is "everybody" anyway? With Armstrong the only injecting story I heard was some trainers assistant or similar. Is there more evidence than that

	25-08-2005 03:53									#125
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I think Datajack was being sarcastic towards Sava, not making allegations as such.

	25-08-2005 03:54									#126
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The thing for me is that I don't buy the argument that for Lance to be "so good" he had to be doping. That just doesn't hold water because

1. he trained for the Tour de France solely when almost no one else had a similar focus-- other riders were riding their guts out mere weeks before the Tour

2. Armstrong often had a superior team making his effort less

3. Armstrongs team prepared more for the Tour in riding stages and preparing them

4. Armstrong's team was the first/best in using technology to measure and monitor effort

These things would be sufficient to explain his advantage even if there is no doping. Perhaps reason 5 is they were better at doping than anyone but I'll need more than this evidence to convince me.

	25-08-2005 03:56									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I think Datajack was being sarcastic towards Sava, not making allegations as such.

Winston-- you might know this -- Are there legal injections-- the type of stuff you could inject in front of the strogest and most vehement antidoper in the world and it would be ok


I know some things are "on the line" like steroidal creams. My recollection is that they can be used for injury if approved by someone in officialdom

	25-08-2005 04:00									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber These things would be sufficient to explain his advantage even if there is no doping. Perhaps reason 5 is they were better at doping than anyone but I'll need more than this evidence to convince me.

Indeed. Dope adds to the performance, but it doesn't replace performance.

I for one see nothing wrong with dope. We should acknowledge that fact and make doping legal on the tour. We would finally get rid of the constant nitpicking that reeks of hypocrisy, and that occurs every year.

	25-08-2005 04:01									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Winston-- you might know this -- Are there legal injections-- the type of stuff you could inject in front of the strogest and most vehement antidoper in the world and it would be ok I know some things are "on the line" like steroidal creams. My recollection is that they can be used for injury if approved by someone in officialdom

I would think so too. The use of syringes is just another way of administering medicine, maybe even nutrients and liquid mineral solutions in some cases. It's not a very pretty thing to envision for athletes, but I don't think it's necessarily against the rules. It would depend on the actual substances taken.

Edit: That being said, it does add to the incrimination when syringes are discarded outside the normal medical aide system. There have been numerous cases of syringes being found in dumpsters at riders' hotels, often together with discarded packages of illegal drugs. Such finds add substantially to suspicions of doping being an everyday occurence for all riders at a certain level, but most often they can't be directly linked to specific riders.

	25-08-2005 04:04									#130
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quote: I think Datajack was being sarcastic towards Sava, not making allegations as such.

look, athletes are supposed to stay sick, if the only medicine they are supposed to treat themselves with contains illegal stuff. But injections.. come on! Don´t they drink enough stuff already?

	25-08-2005 04:18									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber The thing for me is that I don't buy the argument that for Lance to be "so good" he had to be doping. That just doesn't hold water because 1. he trained for the Tour de France solely when almost no one else had a similar focus-- other riders were riding their guts out mere weeks before the Tour 2. Armstrong often had a superior team making his effort less 3. Armstrongs team prepared more for the Tour in riding stages and preparing them 4. Armstrong's team was the first/best in using technology to measure and monitor effort These things would be sufficient to explain his advantage even if there is no doping. Perhaps reason 5 is they were better at doping than anyone but I'll need more than this evidence to convince me.

#5 for me is that he was more disciplined than everybody else and worked harder year-round. But I agree with your points besides.

There are lots of people in this world who think they can build themselves up by tearing down the grand efforts of others -- it's a particularly odious form of envy. There's got to be very strong evidence for me to cross over into that camp.

	25-08-2005 04:27									#132
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quote: Dope adds to the performance, but it doesn't replace performance.

Wrong. The huge scandal of chinese swimming of the 90´s began when sports analizers watched carefully the tapes of chinese female swimmers, noticing their extraordinary results were unexplainable considering their poor tecnique and lack of dynamism. Talent means nothing when you against someone that is just stronger and faster than you. But still, there are clean athletes able to defeat doped ones, even if they really have to be in an extraordinary shape.

	25-08-2005 07:04									#133
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A former Spanish winner of the Tour has said something to the effect that if French put as much effort into grooming cyclists as they put into trying to tear down Armstrong, they might have a recent Tour victory under their belt...

	25-08-2005 18:30									#134
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Naw, they're too lazy. Grooming cyclists is hard work. Tearing down someone else is much easier.

	25-08-2005 23:26									#135
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btw...

I've heard Lance Armstrong giving lots of denials...


saying its not true its not true its not true...

that's nice

but why doesn't he tell us WHY it's not true???

I'll wait for boris to post another weak defense from www.lancearmstrongsfanpage.com or some other site with no credibilty... LOL

	25-08-2005 23:56									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Sava btw... I've heard Lance Armstrong giving lots of denials... saying its not true its not true its not true... that's nice but why doesn't he tell us WHY it's not true??? I'll wait for boris to post another weak defense from www.lancearmstrongsfanpage.com or some other site with no credibilty... LOL

Its sorta like

"sava beats women"

Now Sava, why don't you tell us why thats not true.



People rarely believe denials anyway and if Armstrong realy were clean ( lets assume for the moment he is and was) this crap is offensive.

If Armstron is/ was doping ( lets assume for the moment he was) then he doesn't want to get into sticky details. If dirty he knows he was dirty and probably just wants to wait out to see how much actual evidence there is.

	25-08-2005 23:59									#137
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well your analogy would be more correct if there were six women who had bruises who correctly identified me as the beater...

edit: with my DNA under their fingernails

	26-08-2005 00:24									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Sava well your analogy would be more correct if there were six women who had bruises who correctly identified me as the beater... edit: with my DNA under their fingernails

No -- the analogy would be some woman saying she was beaten repeatedly by you 6 years ago and she has photos of you togeteher and photos of her bruises and a statement from someone that hated you that they had an absolute link between you and the beatings

	26-08-2005 00:31									#139
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Boris
i read the whole thread... agree with everything
you have to say. in fact can't think of anything else
to add to what you said already...


Sava don't you get therapy with your meds?
if you don't you should ck into that

	26-08-2005 00:41									#140
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Funny. Two years ago no northern-american had a clue about professional cycling. And now they are all experts...

	26-08-2005 00:59									#141
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I believe it was seven years ago that no one had a clue.

	26-08-2005 01:06									#142
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And Armstrong is not really an American, he's just a cyborg built by Americans to defeat the French.

	26-08-2005 01:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew And Armstrong is not really an American, he's just a cyborg built by Americans to defeat the French.

You mean beat the Germans. Then again, the French like it when the Germans come onto their soil and beat them.

	26-08-2005 01:33									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Funny. Two years ago no northern-american had a clue about professional cycling. And now they are all experts...

Definitely NOT an expert but I cycled and followed cycling before Armstrong and will continue after Armstrong. The big difference was the improved coverage over time

	26-08-2005 01:57									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'll wait for boris to post another weak defense from www.lancearmstrongsfanpage.com or some other site with no credibilty... LOL

You mean how I've posted from multiple sources (like the AP), but the only single source you have to rely on is a sore loser French rag called Ve Hate Ze Armstrong, HONHONHON!

	26-08-2005 02:04									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Funny. Two years ago no northern-american had a clue about professional cycling. And now they are all experts...

It all started with LeMond and the 7-11 team, not Armstrong.

	26-08-2005 04:53									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov sore loser French rag called Ve Hate Ze Armstrong, HONHONHON!

french people do suck

except spiffor

	26-08-2005 20:25									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Sava btw... I've heard Lance Armstrong giving lots of denials... saying its not true its not true its not true... that's nice but why doesn't he tell us WHY it's not true??? I'll wait for boris to post another weak defense from www.lancearmstrongsfanpage.com or some other site with no credibilty... LOL

Armstrong was on Larry King Live-- you can call him a liar but you can't say he is avoiding the issue

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../25/lkl.01.html