01-09-2005 07:45									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly the scariest words in the English language are really, "I'm from the insurance company."

	01-09-2005 07:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Oh..and if you want to help those poor souls down there then here is the American Red Cross donation link: http://arc.convio.net/site/PageServ...ivd043ac.app10b Please note, that they are preparing to shelter over 350,000 people and are entirely privately funded. I just sent $50. Show how much you libs care. Match me!

Not to worry. Our family gave $500 to Oxfam for tsunami relief; we'll give the same amount to the Red Cross or similar organization for this.

	01-09-2005 07:59									#63
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I guess I should be glad that ya'll waited at least a couple days before using this tragedy to make dubious political points.

	01-09-2005 08:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Not to worry. Our family gave $500 to Oxfam for tsunami relief; we'll give the same amount to the Red Cross or similar organization for this.

	01-09-2005 08:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I guess I should be glad that ya'll waited at least a couple days before using this tragedy to make dubious political points.

Both sides are equally guilty.

	01-09-2005 08:04									#66
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Oh yeah?

	01-09-2005 08:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Winston . He opposed big government as a gospel,

except Reagan was BIG government...

at it's peak in 1983... 24 cents of every dollar spent in America was spent by the government...

I actually feel sorry for you Winston. Because you supposedly hold these ideals of "small government" but yet you idolize a president who did THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WANT!

Seriously Winston... it's like me idolizing Pat Robertson!

and quite frankly, it's hard to take you seriously because of this...

	01-09-2005 08:31									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sava it's like me idolizing Pat Robertson!

hmmm...didn't know that.

	01-09-2005 08:37									#69
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Trust me Sava, the last thing I'd want is to be taken seriously by you. But you lefties really need to make up your minds on this. Did Reagan destroy government or build it up, I think at some point you have to choose one.

	01-09-2005 08:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Oh yeah?

Well I was trying to be nice and not say the right is more guilty, but if you insist.

	01-09-2005 08:46									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Trust me Sava, the last thing I'd want is to be taken seriously by you. But you lefties really need to make up your minds on this. Did Reagan destroy government or build it up, I think at some point you have to choose one.

He made it big but useless for its intended purpose.

	01-09-2005 08:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Well I was trying to be nice

You need more practice, then.

	01-09-2005 08:47									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Did Reagan destroy government or build it up,

he contributed to a movement (that is still in progress) that is seeking to destroy government's power over corporate and other private interests while at the same time, seeking to build up governments power over the public and the US's ability to project power around the world...

effectively, creating a society where you have wealth concentrated at the top, and little chance for upwards social mobility...

corporatism...

mussolini had another name for it...

I think Reagan was most likely a figurehead. He was in the middle stages of alzheimers when he was first elected. Actually, he's quite comparable to Bush. A bumbling fool, easily manipulated by the evil people surrounding him.

And the best part about it is, average folks like you believe in this conservative garbage while the people at the top laugh all the way to the bank.

	01-09-2005 08:52									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly - Between 2001 and 2005, the US Army Corps of Engineers and other government entities repeatedly went to the Bush administration asking for money to bolster New Orleans against a disaster such as this, a disaster that his own head of FEMA said was very likely. They were given a fraction of what they deemed necessary.

It may be a bit more complicated than this. The Army Corps of Engineers has a long history of cooking the books to justify very questionable projects. For example, the infamous Tennessee-Tombigbee waterway was justified on the basis of having a 1.01 benefit/cost ratio in just one congressional district. In fact, the benefits were only about one tenth of what was projected. I wonder if New Orleans was an unfortunate case where lawmakers simply did not believe what the Corps told them.

PS: A friend of mine is a VP of a nationally known consulting firm. His firm refuses to do any more work for the Corps of Engineers because they have been burned before by not getting honest data. When a consultant won't even take your money, you have a real credibility problem.

	01-09-2005 08:56									#75
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Reagan had to work with a distribution in Congress that necessitated a lot of bargaining. Bills where the administration wanted to increase spending in one area were frequently dependant upon the opposition getting some of their own spending proposals passed. This is how it was in a lot of cases, where the alternative would've been to not address key programs at all. Over-budgeting by various departments out of habit from high-inflation times - which Reagan effectively ended - is also part of the explanation. And of course vastly increased defense spending.

But yes, I won't deny that in hindsight it appears the administration spent like a drunken sailor (he-he...), however, as for the defecits, that was a deliberate choice to run those and keep the taxes from rising. I think that was perfectly wise.

And please Sava, could you cut out the crap about Alzheimer's. Unless you back up your insulting claims, don't bother at all.

	01-09-2005 08:58									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hello, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." -- Ronald Reagan I imagine the people in New Orleans are quaking in their boots at the thought of the government coming to help them. Speaking of which, why is New Orleans still flooding. Why has the Army Corps of Engineers started fixing the dikes? Why the hell is the government actins so ineptly on this? Why the hell weren't the walls reinforced after last year's near miss with Ivan? It's like Andrew all over again.

See you make a dig at Reagan and those who distrust the government and then you pont out a lot of ways in which the government ****ed up in the first place (and still now) making things worse.

Hell you debate yourself better than anyone.

	01-09-2005 08:59									#77
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I just sent $50. Show how much you libs care. Match me!

I applaud you, but I don't have $50 to spare. This hurricane set us back $600. I can't make my rent tomorrow. I can't pay back a friend who lent me some money. That doesn't mean I don't have a right to be pissed about the Administration's criminal ineptitude caused by a philosophy of government hatred and greed.

	01-09-2005 09:00									#78
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I thought about that too, Ozzy, but then I forgot to address it.

	01-09-2005 09:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP See you make a dig at Reagan and those who distrust the government and then you pont out a lot of ways in which the government ****ed up in the first place (and still now) making things worse.

I have a rock that protects against tigers. Do you see any tigers around, it must work. Conservatives say the government doesn't work, and every time they get elected they prove it. That isn't really proof the government doesn't work. It's just proof that conservatism doesn't work.

	01-09-2005 09:06									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Trust me Sava, the last thing I'd want is to be taken seriously by you. But you lefties really need to make up your minds on this. Did Reagan destroy government or build it up, I think at some point you have to choose one.

Reagan was a mixed bag. He talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. His rhetoric was awesome and right on the mark (like Che's initial quote), but overall he didn't really shrink the government, it actually grew under his watch. Amazingly the only President in recent memory to have a smaller government when he left office than when he got in was Clinton. How much to credit congress vs. Clinton I dunno, but still damn good to see.

	01-09-2005 09:09									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's just proof that conservatism doesn't work.

Conservatism works... it just works at ruining the quality of life for the majority of the America yet remains popular by repeating the same propaganda talking points while pandering to people's religious beliefs, patriotism, and bigotry.

	01-09-2005 09:09									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have a rock that protects against tigers. Do you see any tigers around, it must work. Conservatives say the government doesn't work, and every time they get elected they prove it. That isn't really proof the government doesn't work. It's just proof that conservatism doesn't work.

Its proof that politics is volitile, and since no matter who you are and what you support you are gonna get dumbasses in office that do stuff you can't stand every once in a while (or most of the time). The less power they have the less they can **** things up.

	01-09-2005 09:10									#83
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP How much to credit congress vs. Clinton

zero...

because the republican congress fought clinton on everything... Clinton could have done a lot more good for this country if it wasn't for the Republicans.

	01-09-2005 09:12									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You'd like to defend the position that it's the scariest someone can tell you in English? Would you prefer if state agents turned up and told you you and your family are going to the Gulags?

Well, as a matter of fact, now that you mention it...

I really don't think you intended that, but it is really funny that you said it.

	01-09-2005 09:13									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith It may be a bit more complicated than this. The Army Corps of Engineers has a long history of cooking the books to justify very questionable projects. For example, the infamous Tennessee-Tombigbee waterway was justified on the basis of having a 1.01 benefit/cost ratio in just one congressional district. In fact, the benefits were only about one tenth of what was projected. I wonder if New Orleans was an unfortunate case where lawmakers simply did not believe what the Corps told them.

Fair enough. Still, when FEMA is telling you that this kind of disaster is likely, and will be one of the worst natural disasters in US history, you could at least independently verify what the USACE is telling you.

	01-09-2005 09:16									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The point is, conservatives like you have this mindset that the government shouldn't do anything to protect people, whether it be from bad food served to you by an unscroupluous vender or a hurricane. On top of that, you want to limit tort reform, so we can't even sue the people who hurt us that the government no longer protects us from. You act like this is not part and parcel of the whole idiotic ideolgy that the government should do as little as possible, and that individuals themselves should rely solely on themselves and no one else for their own protection. I don't get it. Why do you want to undo the whole purpose of civilization in the first place. If it hadn't been for evil, selfish people like you running our government, New Orleans might still be dry.

Wow. You're on full tilt.

I don't think he's a Yank, and I doubt he has a meaningful view on tort reform in your particular portion of the sand box.

Oh, and you speak as if nobody but you gives a damn about anybody else, and people who disagree with you is in favour of the total abolition of government and all its services.

You know, it might be possible for a government to deliver needed services without a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

	01-09-2005 09:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP The less power they have the less they can **** things up.

That's like saying when you're out in the ocean, it's better to be in the water than in a boat, because an idiot captain could sink the boat. It's better to have some government protection than none. It's better to have lots of government prtection than some. The whole point of society, civilization, and government is to offer protection to members of the group. Those at the top may get more protection than those on the bottom, and they may be able to screw those at the bottom, but at the end of the day, the purpose of society is to look out for its members. We evolved that way. It is in our genetic code.

Libertarianism and conservatism are anti-social philosphies, which means, at their core, they are anti-human. This is the philosophy which allowed the necessary work in NO to not be done. This is the philosophy that decided a privately run evacuation plan was the only way to go. Busses and trucks could have been stationed all around the city in order to get people out. Hell, even when you look at evac pictures, they still have the lanes to the city open, instead of using both sides of the highway to get people out. Conservatism took what should have been an economic disaster, and made it a disaster of human life.

I'm not pointing the finger at any one party, because both parties are cupable. Democrats are conservatives too in the South, and always have been. And the Nothern party hasn't had the balls to stand up for the poor. This is the fault of how we think about government, because of an anti-social ideology best typified by the Reagan quote.

	01-09-2005 09:21									#88
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Its also possible that something in this country might not be Bush's exclusive fault. Maybe New Orleans - the city with the most to lose - should have done a bit more to protect themselves. That makes sense.

All but the most extreme libertarians can definitatly see that building some solid levees and such around the city is a proper use of government. At least I do. That doesn't mean its the responsibility of the federal government.

If I was living in New Orleans I'd definitely approve a milliage increase to improve the flood protection system. Should folks in Nebraska pay for it? Nope.

	01-09-2005 09:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You know, it might be possible for a government to deliver needed services without a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

Do you know why we have a Kafka-esque bureaucracy? It's because conservatives are so inflamed that someone, somewhere, might be cheating the government, that they make it impossible for anyone to get any damn help. They have designed the programs to be failures, and then talk about how "big gub'mint" is too ineffiecient to be allowed to do anything. Conservatives claim the government doesn't work, and when elected they prove it.

	01-09-2005 09:26									#90
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP All but the most extreme libertarians can definitatly see that building some solid levees and such around the city is a proper use of government. At least I do. That doesn't mean its the responsibility of the federal government.

Only the Feds have the kind of resources available to handle work of that magnitude. Chicago can't afford to repair the lakefront itself, and had to go hat in hand to the Feds. Chicago is a rich city. New Orelans is not.

quote: Ff I was living in New Orleans I'd definitely approve a milliage increase to improve the flood protection system. Should folks in Nebraska pay for it? Nope.

Well that would be particularly short sighted, since all that grain from Nebraska can't be shipped out now. NO is the major power for about a third of the U.S. The Ohio, Missouri, and Mississippi Rivers all have a lot of ship which ultimately must exist through NO. That isn't gonna happen for a long time now.