01-09-2005 04:28									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor BTW, it's amazing to see how right chegitz is, and how low Winston can swoop to protect his little precious idol.

Is there any specific point you want to make, or did you just feeling like being a little personal?

	01-09-2005 04:35									#32
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People knowledge?

	01-09-2005 04:56									#33
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Hey! I trolled with the very same Reagan quote here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...78&pagenumber=2


I didn't reel Winston in, though. You win.

	01-09-2005 05:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Is there any specific point you want to make, or did you just feeling like being a little personal?

Both.
(well, I'm drunk too, which helps on the "not having a point" part )

On the one hand, this "joke" of Reagan has been boasted as gospel by many conservatives since its inception. I commonly hear it whenever somebody suggests a government program to help people (such as welfare programs).

The current catastrophe reminds us how extremely useful government intervention can be, and how terrible consequences of this statement can be, when life-or-death situations are less spectacular.

On the other hand (the personal one), your worship of Reagan is beyond ridiculous. I can understand that you support him generally speaking (even though I disagree). But you aren't just pre-Reagan: you're a worshipper. Not once did I see you say something like "well, it wasn't Reagan's brightest move" or "well, even good leaders can do/say something idiotic from time to time".

You defend the Reagan absolutely each and every time he is attacked by the left, without flinching. It makes you loko like a tool. Reagan is a topic where you completely lose your ability to criticize.

	01-09-2005 05:01									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Hey! I trolled with the very same Reagan quote here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...78&pagenumber=2 I didn't reel Winston in, though. You win.

But I take it you didn't try to politcally exploit natural disasters and human tragdy either.

	01-09-2005 05:09									#36
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Spiffor,

I have the greatest amount of respect for Reagan, that's true, and it is well-founded IMO. I don't think he was infallible though, but he was a very special kind of political figure, at a very crucial point in our recent political history, even his most ardent critics would agree.

I will stand up for him when I see the need, and in the case of blatant misrepresentations of his speeches or quotes like the one in the opening post, I certainly will chip in, no matter how foolish it's likely to make me appear in the eyes of loony hand-wringing Socialists, such as your good self.

	01-09-2005 05:21									#37
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Its a pity that once you become a leading figure in politics all resemblence of a sense of humour must die.

	01-09-2005 05:30									#38
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Joke... While it was put, and delivered by the Pres., in a slightly jokingly manner, it was more than that. There's an essential message in it, one that was central to Reagan's way of political thinking.

And if it was just a joke, it wouldn't upset so many of his political opponents even today. Apart of course from those who take it way too literally, or try to misrepresent it into something it was never intended to be.

	01-09-2005 05:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I will stand up for him when I see the need, and in the case of blatant misrepresentations of his speeches or quotes like the one in the opening post, I certainly will chip in, no matter how foolish it's likely to make me appear in the eyes of loony hand-wringing Socialists, such as your good self.

You said it...

Personally I am willing to pin the blame on the government for the reasons I outlaid in the other thread, they had a wake up call with Ivan last year and they did sweet FA - now New Orleans is flooded in what should have been a completely avoidable catastrophe!

But hey Winston here would have done the same thing...

	01-09-2005 05:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Joke... While it was put, and delivered by the Pres., in a slightly jokingly manner, it was more than that. There's an essential message in it, one that was central to Reagan's way of political thinking.

And it is precisely what we're criticizing. The Chicago boys. The planned destruction of welfare. The introduction of private economy in plenty of aspects of everyday life that should be public to work properly for the whole population (education, health, etc.)

Yes, his words carried more than a joke. Yes, they carried a policy where the government was "downsized" in order to let the people fend for themselves even for life situations. And yes, his policy created a terrible misery which can still be seen today, for those who look.

There's quite a bit of it in everyday New Orleans. However, nobody would have looked at the city if it wasn't for the natural catastrophe.

	01-09-2005 05:39									#41
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The point is, while it was a joke, it was also a crystallization of Reagan's philosophy. He really did believe that government efforts always made things worse. Go ahead: sift through his 8 years of public utterances as president and find me one instance of him praising government (non-military) actions as positive or even potentially positive. It can't be done.

As with everything else in Reagan's black-and-white world, there were no shades of gray in this issue. Government was always, always the problem, and never the solution. The fact that his own impovershed family benefitted from FDR's New Deal programs made this position not merely idiotic but wilfully so.

And lots of people agreed with him. The whole modern conservative movement was born of that conviction.

That's why, in the wake of disasters such as these, it's so very tempting to exhume his body, hang it in the town square, and beat it with clubs emblazoned with that stupid, stupid "joke." Because he was ridiculously, outrageously wrong -- and yet so convincing in his wrongness as to be dangerous.

	01-09-2005 05:43									#42
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That's where you tend to go overboard Spiffor. In my view, welfare should be reserved for those who aren't capable of fending for themselves. And there's no need for government to take up tasks which are solved equally well or better by private enterprise.

Notice the qualifiers trickingly inserted there, now compare with your own representation of the policies you oppose.

	01-09-2005 05:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Reagan's way of political thinking.

Learn your lines and make sure you look good on TV?

	01-09-2005 05:45									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Winston That's where you tend to go overboard Spiffor. In my view, welfare should be reserved for those who aren't capable of fending for themselves. And there's no need for government to take up tasks which are solved equally well or better by private enterprise.

But the problem is that Reagan believed that every (non-military) problem was better solved by the private sector.

Whereas, I suspect many people in New Orleans are about to find out that the scariest words in the English language are really, "I'm from the insurance company."

	01-09-2005 05:48									#45
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I think it's ridiculous to say that President Reagan always opposed any action taken by government. He opposed big government as a gospel, as it was being elevated to by the left.

And it's also painfully ignorant to seriously claim that Reagan lived and formulated his thoughts in a black and white manner. Terrible twisting there of his character and person.

	01-09-2005 05:48									#46
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What Dave said

	01-09-2005 05:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What Dave said

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

	01-09-2005 05:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Winston And it's also painfully ignorant to seriously claim that Reagan formulated his thoughts. Terrible twisting there of his character and person.

	01-09-2005 05:54									#50
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You don't know what you're on about, atawa. Learn a little about the man you're criticizing.

	01-09-2005 05:59									#51
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I have, and yes, he was just there for show

Do you also believe in HCA's fairytales?

	01-09-2005 06:04									#52
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They're certainly more truthful than the ones you've apparently made up for yourself on this matter.

	01-09-2005 06:09									#53
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Damn, you realy dont have a clue how politics work dont you?

	01-09-2005 06:12									#54
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Now, where did that come from. I thought we were exchanging mild insults loosely based in the fairytale realm.

	01-09-2005 06:27									#55
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Okay folks. That quote is gospel for conservatives, but NOT for the reasons that the liberal drumbeaters keep saying. Typical liberals...take something out of context...say it over and over..and then the masses start believing it.

Reagan's quote was a statement on the inefficientcy of Government, not the need to have it removed from the equation.

It is a simple fact that the same type liberals who are screaming here have, in fact, been the ones who have created the massive amounts of bureacracy that Government has to work through. Private industry, on the other hand, always tries to streamline processes in order to create efficiencies. Government has no such mission.

So, I will put it to you liberals, why did you create such gross inefficiencies in Government as to keep them from being able to reinforce those leviees?


Oh...that sounds stupid to you? Now you know how conservatives feel everytime the libs post.

	01-09-2005 06:34									#56
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO So, I will put it to you liberals, why did you create such gross inefficiencies in Government as to keep them from being able to reinforce those leviees? Oh...that sounds stupid to you? Now you know how conservatives feel everytime the libs post.

Bush and the GOP-controlled congress cut flood control money requests for New Orleans by 44% over the last four years; most of that money was used instead for the war in Iraq.

edit: That includes reducing by 80% a 2004 request by the Army Corps of Engineers for Lake Pontchartrain levee improvement.

Thank you; come again.

	01-09-2005 07:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Bush and the GOP-controlled congress cut flood control money requests for New Orleans by 44% over the last four years; most of that money was used instead for the war in Iraq. edit: That includes reducing by 80% a 2004 request by the Army Corps of Engineers for Lake Pontchartrain levee improvement. Thank you; come again.

So he cut all the money for the paperwork? Yes, of course, I know i am being idiotic on that.

Obviously, more should be done in this area. The existing leviees were only built to withstand a cat3 hurricane anyway. To build to withstand a cat5 would have taken massivly more money than was ever considered. But it is just too easy to blame on Bush, right? haha

Of course, If Private industry was to build them and the residences and businesses inside them paid a usage fee....

	01-09-2005 07:29									#58
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Oh..and if you want to help those poor souls down there then here is the American Red Cross donation link:

http://arc.convio.net/site/PageServ...ivd043ac.app10b

Please note, that they are preparing to shelter over 350,000 people and are entirely privately funded.

I just sent $50. Show how much you libs care. Match me!

	01-09-2005 07:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO So he cut all the money for the paperwork? Yes, of course, I know i am being idiotic on that. Obviously, more should be done in this area. The existing leviees were only built to withstand a cat3 hurricane anyway. To build to withstand a cat5 would have taken massivly more money than was ever considered. But it is just too easy to blame on Bush, right? haha Of course, If Private industry was to build them and the residences and businesses inside them paid a usage fee....

It's easy to note this:

- In 2001, under Bush, FEMA pointed out the very things that you've pointed out.

- Between 2001 and 2005, the US Army Corps of Engineers and other government entities repeatedly went to the Bush administration asking for money to bolster New Orleans against a disaster such as this, a disaster that his own head of FEMA said was very likely. They were given a fraction of what they deemed necessary.

- Meanwhile, between 2001 and 2005, Bush and the GOP congress cut taxes and plunged the government into debt financing an ill-thought-out, deceitfully-justified war.

Yes, hurricanes happen. Yes, cities shouldn't be built below sea level. But you gotta wonder what would have happened if the president had listened to the people who knew what they were talking about -- including his own appointees -- and had kept the country solvent enough to act on their advice. This isn't Bush's fault, but it is his failure.

	01-09-2005 07:42									#60
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I'm actually wondering why Bush cancelled his vacation and sent in the the navy to assist 2 days after it became apparent NO was in serious trouble.

Not that he's alone, tho... Congress has pledged to put the relief effort of the Gulf coast on the top of their priority list when they reconvene next week.