01-09-2005 10:57									#121
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Mao and Stalin are the ultimate extention of Che's and Theban's point of view.

Humans serve society. People are resources, or weeds, to be exploited, or exterminated, as society (the government) sees fit.

Welcome to anti-humanism.

	01-09-2005 11:08									#122
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quote: Humans serve society. People are resources, or weeds, to be exploited, or exterminated, as society (the government) sees fit.

funny ****. AFAIK, departments of human resources exist in corporations, government instituitons, everything. Your position is that of a demagogue: any system these days treats humans as resources to be exploited. This is the meaning of the "free flow of labor", and every other liberalization of labor contract law - to make human resources more flexible, a better clay that would fit the molds easier. The approach of capitalism can also be seen as exterminating those it sees unfit, or their marginalization.

Welcome to anti-humanism.

	01-09-2005 11:11									#123
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quote: "free flow of labor"

What does that phrase mean?

	01-09-2005 11:14									#124
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quote: The approach of capitalism can also be seen as exterminating those it sees unfit, or their marginalization.

You can, with a straight face, compare capitalist labour practices with the gulags, and cultural revolutions of the states where socialism has had freest expression?

	01-09-2005 11:24									#125
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quote: You can, with a straight face, compare capitalist labour practices with the gulags, and cultural revolutions of the states where socialism has had freest expression?

I can compare places where socialism had a very large degree of free expression ( and these weren't the SU or the PRC), and compare them easily, and with a straight face with life and exploitation in other places in the second half of the 20th century.

I can compare the horrors of gulags with horrors in the 19th century on behalf of capitalism.

quote: What does that phrase mean?

No job security.

	01-09-2005 11:32									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: You can, with a straight face, compare capitalist labour practices with the gulags, and cultural revolutions of the states where socialism has had freest expression? I can compare places where socialism had a very large degree of free expression ( and these weren't the SU or the PRC), and compare them easily, and with a straight face with life and exploitation in other places in the second half of the 20th century. I can compare the horrors of gulags with horrors in the 19th century on behalf of capitalism.

Well then, I guess you are a big fan of democide.

quote: quote: What does that phrase mean? No job security.

No closed shop.

	01-09-2005 11:43									#127
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Az has it right.

The REAL debate between commies and cappies, not the sissy OMFG UR VIOLATING MY RIGHTS debate, is which system more efficiently organizes and directs capital and labor.

	01-09-2005 11:52									#128
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And who kills the least people who won't do as they're told.

	01-09-2005 11:54									#129
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That's a part of efficient organization.

Ultimately of course it's about net utility, but in general that directly follows from a well-organized economy.

	01-09-2005 13:00									#130
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So, what's the ideal conservative response to this disaster? Hand over everything to a thousand different charities?

	01-09-2005 13:03									#131
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The indirect answer to that is there if you read the thread.

	01-09-2005 13:10									#132
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I'm looking for a direct answer.

	01-09-2005 13:12									#133
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The direct answer, AFAIC, would be "no".

Note that this doesn't mean you can't read the thread to find out more.

	01-09-2005 13:49									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Bush and the GOP-controlled congress cut flood control money requests for New Orleans by 44% over the last four years; most of that money was used instead for the war in Iraq. edit: That includes reducing by 80% a 2004 request by the Army Corps of Engineers for Lake Pontchartrain levee improvement.

Was the 2004 request by the Army Corps of Engineers for Lake Pontchartrain levee improvement directly after Ivan passed by last year?

So the Gulf War is responsible for New Orleans getting flooded?

How ironic.

	01-09-2005 14:09									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Winston The direct answer, AFAIC, would be "no". Note that this doesn't mean you can't read the thread to find out more.

Thanks, but I'm not in the mood for riddles.

	01-09-2005 14:25									#136
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He's avoiding the question because he doesn't have an answer...

	01-09-2005 15:14									#137
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Summary of Bush's speech yesterday :

"Aw, it's tough, but you guys'll get through it"

Seemed quite 'Reaganesque' to me in the terms of this discussion...

	01-09-2005 15:17									#138
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Dis fathers a child.

	01-09-2005 15:28									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Az has it right. The REAL debate between commies and cappies, not the sissy OMFG UR VIOLATING MY RIGHTS debate, is which system more efficiently organizes and directs capital and labor.

Kuci, you freaking rule

	01-09-2005 16:40									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The REAL debate between commies and cappies, not the sissy OMFG UR VIOLATING MY RIGHTS debate, is which system more efficiently organizes and directs capital and labor.

Yeah, spot on. The OMFG UR VIOLATING MY RIGHTS has been a serious distraction. However, without a conscious and organised working class, communism is not an option, which means that Marxists must look for other ways to promote their values of science, reason, industry, progress and liberty.

	01-09-2005 16:45									#141
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quote: That's a part of efficient organization. Ultimately of course it's about net utility, but in general that directly follows from a well-organized economy.

Have you accepted utilitarianism as your personal jesus?

	01-09-2005 17:33									#142
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Conservatism destroys a major city out of greed and its ideolgoy, and all they have to retort with is: Mao! Stalin!

	01-09-2005 18:09									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Conservatism destroys a major city out of greed and its ideolgoy, and all they have to retort with is: Mao! Stalin!

I posted a little about this in the looting thread, but this seems somewhat more appropo to this discussion.

Capitalism is all about the free market ideally. In reality it's tough love for the working classes and corporate welfare to protect the stockholders.

In New Orleans we have looters and chaos. There is almost no government interference. This is the new economy. Those who are strong enough to sieze goods and to provide services are doing so. In a primitive market like this, there aren't going to be many if any services, but there are goods to be seized and distributed and for a cost by gangs. Gangs in this case are the capitalists.

They are the new entrepeneurs. The gangs will have all of the capital and will control the market. The government should not interfere with new free market dynamics that are emerging in New Orleans.

Now I am not seriously advocating that we allow gang rule to take over New Orleans, but isn't my scenario the capitalist ideal of a free market?

edit: Fixed some grammar. I hate it when my grammar is awkward

	01-09-2005 18:24									#144
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Your genitalia has caught something not known to medical journals.

	01-09-2005 18:27									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Your genitalia has caught something not known to medical journals.

My mailman lives on the left of all the sticks that the bird dropped near the parking lot.

	01-09-2005 18:34									#146
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im happy to see that Mr. C. Guevera has joined in support of the utilitarian, liberal state, and is calling for greater investment in infrastructure. I look forward to seeing him join me in supporting Hillary Clinton. She will need all the help in Florida she can get.

	01-09-2005 19:01									#147
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Sorry Moses, I think that's more than 10..

	01-09-2005 19:06									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Still, when FEMA is telling you that this kind of disaster is likely, and will be one of the worst natural disasters in US history, you could at least independently verify what the USACE is telling you.

Absolutely.

	01-09-2005 19:17									#149
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Pekka

	01-09-2005 19:22									#150
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Conservatism destroys a major city out of greed and its ideolgoy, and all they have to retort with is: Mao! Stalin!