01-09-2005 09:27									#91
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The 10 scariest words in English Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP The less power they have the less they can **** things up. That's like saying when you're out in the ocean, it's better to be in the water than in a boat, because an idiot captain could sink the boat. It's better to have some government protection than none. It's better to have lots of government prtection than some. The whole point of society, civilization, and government is to offer protection to members of the group. Those at the top may get more protection than those on the bottom, and they may be able to screw those at the bottom, but at the end of the day, the purpose of society is to look out for its members. We evolved that way. It is in our genetic code.

Well then you no doubt expanding the government protection offered in the Patriot Act? Actually, the patriot act only offers some government protection, better yet would be lots of government protection. Lets pass a supped up patriot act on steroids. Its the purpose of society to look out for its members and protect them, so surely you'd support the most expansive patriot act possible?

Oh wait, you're concerned about privacy? About freedom? Well that's the whole fricken point here. "Government protection" often will trample on liberty, privacy, and civil rights. That's why "government protection" is often a euphamism for oppression.

Why do you support "government protection" in some areas and (i'm guessing) don't support "government protection" with policies such as the Patriot Act? The arguments are exactly the same.

	01-09-2005 09:34									#92
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Just because the argument is the same doesn't mean that in one case the argument is honest. There are certain aspects of the PATRIOT ACT I have no problem with. Roving wiretaps, for instance, makes sense. Searching someone's place secretly does not. Secret, unaccountable courts make no sense whatsoever (but that's not from the PATRIOT ACT).

	01-09-2005 09:36									#93
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Rounding up my points on Reagan, I think as for his stated goals for the first term - off the top of my head - he did pretty well,

Restore confidence at home and abroad - check
Cut inflation - check
Cut interest rates - check
Cut unemployment - check
Rebuild defense - check
Cut spending - er, let me get back to you on this...
Reduce taxes - check

	01-09-2005 09:37									#94
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With as little sense that they make, they make a hell of a lot more sense than trusting bureaucrats in the capitol with telling every mom & pop in the country where to work, how to work, how much to get paid, telling them where to live, what food to eat, etc.

	01-09-2005 09:38									#95
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP The less power they have the less they can **** things up. That's like saying when you're out in the ocean, it's better to be in the water than in a boat, because an idiot captain could sink the boat. It's better to have some government protection than none. It's better to have lots of government prtection than some. The whole point of society, civilization, and government is to offer protection to members of the group. Those at the top may get more protection than those on the bottom, and they may be able to screw those at the bottom, but at the end of the day, the purpose of society is to look out for its members. We evolved that way. It is in our genetic code. Libertarianism and conservatism are anti-social philosphies, which means, at their core, they are anti-human. This is the philosophy which allowed the necessary work in NO to not be done. This is the philosophy that decided a privately run evacuation plan was the only way to go. Busses and trucks could have been stationed all around the city in order to get people out. Hell, even when you look at evac pictures, they still have the lanes to the city open, instead of using both sides of the highway to get people out. Conservatism took what should have been an economic disaster, and made it a disaster of human life. I'm not pointing the finger at any one party, because both parties are cupable. Democrats are conservatives too in the South, and always have been. And the Nothern party hasn't had the balls to stand up for the poor. This is the fault of how we think about government, because of an anti-social ideology best typified by the Reagan quote.

Holy ****. You've totally lost it.

Big government is in our genetic code?

People who disagree with you are anti-human? Don't you think you're claiming a bit more ground than you have earned there, Che?

It is the fault of how 'you' look at government, but you blame Reagan?

	01-09-2005 09:41									#96
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You know, it might be possible for a government to deliver needed services without a Kafkaesque bureaucracy. Do you know why we have a Kafka-esque bureaucracy? It's because conservatives are so inflamed that someone, somewhere, might be cheating the government, that they make it impossible for anyone to get any damn help. They have designed the programs to be failures, and then talk about how "big gub'mint" is too ineffiecient to be allowed to do anything. Conservatives claim the government doesn't work, and when elected they prove it.

Conservatives? Don't you mean Americans, since as you say the problems are in both parties?

	01-09-2005 09:43									#97
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP With as little sense that they make, they make a hell of a lot more sense than trusting bureaucrats in the capitol with telling every mom & pop in the country where to work, how to work, how much to get paid, telling them where to live, what food to eat, etc.

And when did liberals ever do that?

	01-09-2005 09:44									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hello, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." -- Ronald Reagan

I dunno. The government can be kind of scary when it tries to help.

http://www.reason.com/0302/fe.ss.wrecking.shtml

	01-09-2005 09:45									#99
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Communists do.

	01-09-2005 09:45									#100
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Conservatives? Don't you mean Americans, since as you say the problems are in both parties?

You forget that the U.S. has two conservative parties. One just has a tiny liberal wing to it. The other one used to have a tiny liberal wing, but it has been successfully purged. Ironically enough, Bush's father used to be a GOP liberal, at least before he became Reagan's VP.

	01-09-2005 09:46									#101
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Communists do.

Actually we don't. That was Stalinism, which beasrs the same relation to communism that Nazism bears to conservatism. A twisted nightmarish version.

	01-09-2005 09:47									#102
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And they are all ultimately anti-human, yes?

One wonders how they are resisting the power of their genetic code.

	01-09-2005 09:48									#103
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I dunno. The government can be kind of scary when it tries to help. http://www.reason.com/0302/fe.ss.wrecking.shtml

Hmmm, a conservative state . . . once more proving my point. Conservatives starved the agency into failure. Jeb Bush and the GOP took a state with a $750 million dollar surplus and have run it into the ground.

Don't have enough info about those cities to say one way or another.

	01-09-2005 09:50									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually we don't. That was Stalinism, which beasrs the same relation to communism that Nazism bears to conservatism. A twisted nightmarish version.

And Maoism. And...

And prevalent in a lot of socialist education systems.

Tracking, I think they call it. Educators make decisions at an early point in a persons life what he or she is capable of doing. They then put that human on that track, whether it be towards physics or plumbing, the decision is made while the child is quite young, and once you are on, you are stuck.

Sounds like about what Ozz posted, to me.

	01-09-2005 09:53									#105
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Sorry, the word is 'streaming', or at least that is what it is around here.

It's also very disgusting.

	01-09-2005 09:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And Maoism.

Maoism is Stalinism.

	01-09-2005 09:55									#107
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Sorry, the word is 'streaming', or at least that is what it is around here. It's also very disgusting.

They also did it in my conservative-ass city in my conservative-ass state, Illinois.

	01-09-2005 09:55									#108
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quote: Maoism is Stalinism.

Only really different.

quote: They also did it in my conservative-ass city in my conservative-ass state, Illinois.

I assume you're talking about the conservative bastion that is Chicago...

	01-09-2005 09:59									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Maoism is Stalinism. Only really different.

Only in shape, not in essence.

quote: quote: They also did it in my conservative-ass city in my conservative-ass state, Illinois. I assume you're talking about the conservative bastion that is Chicago...

I grew up in a far western surburb, Batavia. Dennis Hastert was my congressman, as well as a coach my high school team played against.

	01-09-2005 10:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hmmm, a conservative state . . . once more proving my point.

New Jersey seems to be the perfect counterpoint in and of itself. Though I am curious if you want me to try dig up the various reasons why people might mistrust the government. It would be quite a long list even if I limited the examples to swing states (which includes Florida) and blue states.

	01-09-2005 10:03									#111
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quote: Only in shape, not in essence.

Whatever dude...

	01-09-2005 10:04									#112
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DT, don't embarrass yourself by talking about what you don't know about communism.

	01-09-2005 10:05									#113
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If you want to attack che on his beliefs, you might want to start by asking him about the Trot defense of state terror to bring dissidents into line. Or the various purges Lenin ordered against civilians.

	01-09-2005 10:05									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc New Jersey seems to be the perfect counterpoint in and of itself.

The only place more corrupt than Florida.

	01-09-2005 10:06									#115
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Also not known as a bastion of conservatism.

	01-09-2005 10:09									#116
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quote: If you want to attack che on his beliefs

Why bother? The march of history has done more to discredit che's belief system than anything I could possibly say.

	01-09-2005 10:10									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I applaud you, but I don't have $50 to spare. This hurricane set us back $600. I can't make my rent tomorrow. I can't pay back a friend who lent me some money. That doesn't mean I don't have a right to be pissed about the Administration's criminal ineptitude caused by a philosophy of government hatred and greed.

Well...from each according to their means...hehe

Best of luck to you. You are a victum of this disaster. It is the rest of us that should help you in a time of trouble.

The problem is that everyone counts on the gov't now...and not their friends and neighbors

	01-09-2005 10:17									#118
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That's probably because they couldn't count on their friends and neighbors.

	01-09-2005 10:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Big government is in our genetic code?

The desire to preserve and improve society is, not big govt.

quote: People who disagree with you are anti-human?

No, the philosophy puts the needs of the individual over the needs of society. The philosophy is anti-human.

	01-09-2005 10:48									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Theben The desire to preserve and improve society is, not big govt.

And the assumption is that big brother is in the best position to improve our lives on a day to day basis. That is very much open to argument.

quote: No, the philosophy puts the needs of the individual over the needs of society. The philosophy is anti-human.

I would say the philosophy that puts the needs of society over the needs of the individuals is the anti-human one, it's the one that leads to state mandated homicide on mass scale.