03-09-2005 17:04									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean However, since the EU has no responsible mechanism for crafting foreign policy, and in the light of the mess it helped create, it cannot help but try to boil the Cyprus issue down to a procedural list of requirements totally unrelated to the realities and the nature of the Cyprus problem.

Now how can we let you in if you're occupying part of one of our current members?

And the fact the gouverment simply denies the genocide against the Armenians doesnt help.

	03-09-2005 18:13									#62
	Support Apolyton

I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey's stance in thie OP was actually an exit door. Turkey's entry in the EU is very unpopular in Europe, and the trend leans toward a rising opposition about it.

Besides, two of the main supporters of Turkey's entry (Chirac and Schröder) are weakened at home, and thus they can't push for this personal position of theirs as strongly as they did before. Turkey finds itself significantly less supported within the EU decision process.

Also, the EU demands that every member-State agrees with any new member joining. generally, the Parliament does this, but France is supposed to hold a referendum and it will reject Turkey (if the current trend remains the same). Besides, considering how sensitive the issue is, I wouldn't be surprised if other European countries held referendums as well.

It's not only the people who reject Turkey (out of racism, out of fear, out of the idea that the UE is a Christian club, out of the idea that Turkey doesn't belong geographically or whatever). There are also many Eurocrats, even the ones most enthusiastic for the European idea, who are opposed to a further enlargement in general, and to an elargement to Turkey in particular:

In the EU, there are two opposite dynamics: Enlarging the EU, and deepening it. We have just had our most ambitious enlargement: 10 countries, 80 million people who have a very different standard of living and a fairly different worldview than western Europe. The economic growth of these countries is costly to western Europe, whether wealth is transmitted by institutions (infrastructure funds) or by the market (trade balance, direct investment). It will probably last a whole generation before these countries match the western standards of living.

Politically speaking, the EU institutions weren't ready at all for dealing with 25 members (they already sucked for 15 members). Especially as several of the new members just won't take a backseat, like Poland. The EU constitution intended to streamline the political processes (but it sucked at doing so anyway), and it is now dead. The politicial deepening of the EU will probably not begin again for a decade or so.

For these reasons, Eurocrats can see the enlargement to Turkey as an undertaking for which the EU isn't ready yet. As an idea that is fundamentally untimely, and probably for a very long time to come.



In face of all these different oppositions, the Turkish government has probably understood that Turkey has very little chance to join during the current negociation circle, if it has any chance at all.
Also, they might now be interested in the often-brandished alternative: Turkey is to belong to very close economic ties to the EU (basically, something very similar as the economic perks of actually being in the EU), without formal membership. Such a solution, while it's not the same symbol as joining the EU, would avoid many many headaches.

	03-09-2005 18:16									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Winston If Greece should be scolded/isolated, it should be for its obstructive and harassing behaviour surrounding Macedonia at a time when this new nation was struggling for recognition from the international community. An absolute disgrace that was.

I used to think the greek opposition was based on concrete facts such as the articles in skopje (=FYROM) constitution calling for liberation of macedonia. I used to think it was secondarily used for internal political purposes to spice up the national feeling and get votes.
i used to think a lot of things and most were right.
what i didnt know was the recent history of macedonia before and after the collapse of the ottoman empire.
nd now i can say safely there is no chance in hell this country is going anywhere with the name republic of macedonia. a country has to do what it has to do to protect its future generations from squabbles especially if it is situated in the balkans. sorry if others dont understand. it would be good if they did of course, but that requires to have time devoded to the issue and simply read unbiased history about macedonia, komitatzides etc etc

	03-09-2005 18:17									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm back from my holidays btw hello!

	03-09-2005 18:19									#65
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i remain in favor of a full turkish membership btw when and if turkey fulfills all the criteria. but in all honesty what i see happening is a "special relationship"

	03-09-2005 18:33									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

Spiffor.

	03-09-2005 18:34									#67
	Remove this text

bereta_eder, you mean one of those special relationships seen in midnight express? That's cool but as long as you are William Hayes and I get to watch.

	03-09-2005 18:38									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ahhh poly...

actually it would beinteresting to start talking what this special relationship would be. i'm guessing it will be exactly what it is now. maybe no taxes to and from. but there will be no participation in decision making process. maybe but that's far too soon to be talking about, if there ever is a common defense policy turkey will be a part of it somehow. that's as far as i can see it. well based on as things are now, which were wholesomelly detailed in Spiff's post.

	03-09-2005 18:59									#69
	Remove this text

thank you for deciding these things for all of us my Greek King .

I say NO!

We let the girls out but the men stay. That's it. End of discussion.

	03-09-2005 19:01									#70
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You're welcome subject. You can kiss my pingy.

	03-09-2005 19:06									#71
	Support Apolyton

quote: i used to think a lot of things and most were right. what i didnt know was the recent history of macedonia before and after the collapse of the ottoman empire.

Think again. Macedonia was always harmless to Greece and is even more so now that the Albanian problem has escalated. Greek embargo back in the nineties was a shameful act.

quote: nd now i can say safely there is no chance in hell this country is going anywhere with the name republic of macedonia.

US state department thinks otherwise and calls it Macedonia officially (I think).

	03-09-2005 19:11									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: i used to think a lot of things and most were right. what i didnt know was the recent history of macedonia before and after the collapse of the ottoman empire. Think again. Macedonia was always harmless to Greece and is even more so now that the Albanian problem has escalated. Greek embargo back in the nineties was a shameful act. quote: nd now i can say safely there is no chance in hell this country is going anywhere with the name republic of macedonia. US state department thinks otherwise and calls it Macedonia officially (I think).

1. eh? what about the bulgarian komitazides as early as the 19th century advocating unification of the geographic region of macedonia with bulgaria? or the other fraction of theirs advocating first autonomy and then unification with bulgaria? (btw we are wrong when we call them slavs, they're basically mostly bulgarian)

and if tha's not recent enough for you what about the articles in their contritution in 1990's calling for "liberation of macedonia"?


they changed this after the embargo.


or do you think that just because they don't pose a military threat we should just let them be and just keep going to the beach?

nein. no skpjie with name of macedonia. and the US is not bordering Skpjie nor does it have veto in EU memberhsip or nato (well the latter it has) and it has committed to agree to whatever both countries agree even though of course the US plays their little games in the balkans too


a country's name is its soul and skpjie will not be permitted to have a macedonian soul not just because they dont have it anyway but because if they are let to keep faking it they can cause problems in the long run. of course someone far away can say donkeyheaded greeks and that's ok, he's not the one living here and isn't expected to know anything about it.

	03-09-2005 19:12									#73
	Put an end to popups!

Spiffor,

quote: The economic growth of these countries is costly to western Europe, whether wealth is transmitted by institutions (infrastructure funds) or by the market (trade balance, direct investment). It will probably last a whole generation before these countries match the western standards of living.

It could take much more than a generation, don't forget old EU economies are growing too. At a slow pace, but growing. New members have to have strong growth for decades to catch up.

And let's not forget that membership itself is not a guarantee that economies of members will converge in the meaning of GDP/capita. Take Greece for example, it is as rich/poor now in relation to other EU countries as she was when she became a member, always floating somewhere between 65-75% of average EU GDP/capita.

	03-09-2005 19:15									#74
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bulgarians are Slavs little paiktis, stop learning history from Greek tabloid press or wherever

	03-09-2005 19:16									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bulgarians are slavicized mongols my little croat tie. start learning history other than what is in the surface

	03-09-2005 19:21									#76
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

And history of Macedonia is a bit complex. I do not know it very well and would do it a bit of unjustice trying to explain it in one post. Basically, Macedonian language is virtually indistinguishable from Bulgarian and Macedonians are really really close to Bulgarians ethnically and culturally.

One of their main parties, VMRO-DPMNE, draws its name from historical VRMO movement which fought the Turks, was founded or based in Sofia (Bulgaria) and so on.

Basically, the one who is "responsible" for modern day Macedonia is Josip Broz Tito. I've been to Skopje shortly and he is still very much respected there, unlike in other ex-Yugoslavian republics where he is mostly despised.

	03-09-2005 19:23									#77
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Spiffor, It could take much more than a generation, don't forget old EU economies are growing too. At a slow pace, but growing. New members have to have strong growth for decades to catch up. And let's not forget that membership itself is not a guarantee that economies of members will converge in the meaning of GDP/capita. Take Greece for example, it is as rich/poor now in relation to other EU countries as she was when she became a member, always floating somewhere between 65-75% of average EU GDP/capita.

Indeed. Let's hope there will be more success with the ney members than with Greece.

	03-09-2005 19:25									#78
	Suffering from ads?

Yes Tito is responsible for Skopjie getting the name Macedonia. They were called Vardar before. That was his plan to get an exit in the aegean sea. Funny that they tried it to keep it in motion after communism has failed!


a theory says the greeks didnt oppose the name back then because our allies (with allies like those who needs enemies ) didnt want to displease moscow bashing Tito. (tito went "away" from soviets) another theory says we foolishly believed that after comminism fell we could claim that land for our own so we let the name change take place without objection. take your pick. both are possible.

	03-09-2005 19:27									#79
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit A country refusing to admit genocide against Armenia and invading a european country with no intention to go away has no place in the EU

Since when is Cyprus in Europe?

	03-09-2005 19:27									#80
	Increase Your PM Length

Both Rodos and Cyprus are geographically in Asia although culturally they have been "classified" european since long ago.

	03-09-2005 19:27									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion unlike in other ex-Yugoslavian republics where he [Tito] is mostly despised.

Why is he despised?

	03-09-2005 19:28									#82
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And about them being threat - no way.

Most European countries, or in fact world countries, have some sort of "megali" idea. Does the term sound familiar?

Even the famous hippies the Finns, have a longing for a legitimate part of Russia which is South Karelia. I bet you you can find maps of "greater Finland" on the internet, and I bet you fringe political parties are having it in their programme to fight for return of those territories.

Now, you may say it was more mainstream in 1990-ies Macedonia. Perhaps so. But you have to know that Tito's regime dealt with nationalism brutally and it was suppressed in Yugoslavia. So naturally when Yugoslavia fell apart you saw an explosion of such sentiments in the republics. Hell, there is even map of "greater Slovenia".

What of it? Nothing. Greeks should have showed wisdom and let Macedonians lose steam naturally. Threat to Solun was minimal, MarkG was always safe

	03-09-2005 19:29									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Since when is Cyprus in Europe?

1st May 2004

	03-09-2005 19:29									#84
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

the hippie finns

	03-09-2005 19:35									#85
	Got spare money?

I wonder why Greece sees a divided Bulgaria as more of a threat than a united Bulgaria.

	03-09-2005 19:36									#86
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

gdong! who ever said that?

	03-09-2005 19:40									#87
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder Bulgarians are slavicized mongols my little croat tie. start learning history other than what is in the surface

slavicised Turks is more like it.

	03-09-2005 19:40									#88
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW relations with Skopjie are in fact excellent. greece is biggest investor, created thousands of jobs, helped with putting down albanian insurgance lending apache's helicopters and such and all are going peachy except for the name. i think soon it will be resolved too to both countries satisfaction. but noone seems to be in a hurry about that. letting it cool off i think,.

	03-09-2005 19:41									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Why is he despised?

I probably used too strong a word. He is not universally despised. People lived and loved under his regime, and you could live very good if you stayed out of politics. So many in all republics remember him fondly. Sentiments are mixed.

He is blamed for a lot of things though.

Serbs blame him because they think they were screwed in Yugoslavia, what with being the largest nation and all. They think they should have had more say and influence, and they think they invested a lot in Yugoslavia and look how they were repaid by smaller nations.

Croats and Slovenians think he preferred the Serbs and gave them too much influence and power, and also drained money from them to invest in Serbia (Kosovo).

Bosnian muslims love him

	03-09-2005 19:46									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder BTW relations with Skopjie are in fact excellent. greece is biggest investor, helped with putting down albanian insurgance lending apache's helicopters and such and all are going peachy except for the name. i think soon it will be resolved too to both countries satisfaction. but noone seems to be in a hurry about that. letting it cool off i think,.

Well, invest more. Skopje is rather poor, after Athens it seemed to me like from another universe. Their landlocked position and political trouble is really hurting the economy. For two Euros you can get taxi to drive you wherever, and that's the "naive tourist" price. In Zagreb it's 10 even for the shortest relations, and most are 20 or more