06-09-2005 19:37									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og There were waves of Islamic nationalism in the past but the Turkish army always intervenes.

Hmmm. Perhaps the world should look at allowing Turkey to annex Iraq as a way of promoting stability in Middle East..

	06-09-2005 19:39									#152
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I wonder if this anti-Macedonian feeling among greeks is or was mutual. Our family had a Macedonian exchange student for a year about 10 years ago, and he hated Albanians, not Greeks.

we dont hate them, we just want them to stop using our history and symbols for their own....

quote: The new one is too much like the Japanese naval ensign.

only to show that after thousands of years of great history they couldnt somehow have another symbol to use and ended up doing something that resembles the vergina star....

quote: Better yet, whoever can figure out who is actually buried in Vergina wins the argument and gets the symbol.

i wont answer

btw, Vergina is 20kms from my father's village and 60 kms from thessaloniki. if we do a european convention in thessaloniki we could do a short visit to see where ____ was buried

	06-09-2005 19:47									#153
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: Because you live in the same geographical area you are connected how exactly how many sentences does your post contain? i'm a bit confused by your english

Its my language and I'll mangle it anyway I choose

	06-09-2005 19:49									#154
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how are you connected with whoever lived in your geographical area 1000 years ago?

	06-09-2005 20:49									#155
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I wonder if this anti-Macedonian feeling among greeks is or was mutual. Our family had a Macedonian exchange student for a year about 10 years ago, and he hated Albanians, not Greeks.

I don't think there's much hatred between Skopjians and Greeks. I knew one for a couple of months abroad we used to hang around go drinking with the gand etc. Cool guy. But I do have some funny stories about how he was a little scared at the beggining of how would Greeks would respond to him when he would tell them where he was from

	06-09-2005 21:16									#156
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and we shouldnt forget Toni Savevski

	06-09-2005 21:36									#157
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I think we all know the Greeks are the nazis of the mediterranian.. always has been, always has been, always will be. FACT.

	06-09-2005 21:41									#158
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We're the cutest.

	06-09-2005 22:36									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Brundlefly Hmmm. Perhaps the world should look at allowing Turkey to annex Iraq as a way of promoting stability in Middle East..

Well Iraq was just as secular as Turkey before the US invaded. There were cases in Turkey where fundies got into parliament through elections just like in Iraq (which is as democratic as it can get) but they were not allowed to have any power (which is not very democratic but the US did not seem to have a problem with that).

	07-09-2005 03:59									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I think we all know the Greeks are the nazis of the mediterranian.. always has been, always has been, always will be. FACT.

The Mediterranean must be quite good if their nazis are actually the ones who invented democracy...

	07-09-2005 04:51									#161
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Greeks are really Turks who'd like to be Italians.

- German traditional

	07-09-2005 14:11									#162
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and noone asks who Toni Savevski is...

	07-09-2005 15:33									#163
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG we dont hate them, we just want them to stop using our history and symbols for their own....

Cards on the table! If it's your symbol, prove it - who's in each tomb in the Great Tumulus? Let's hear some names, here!

Of course, any possible candidates are of the Macedonian Argead dynasty, so you'll have to prove that they're Greek enough to call them your history...

	07-09-2005 15:58									#164
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Philip II, Persephone and Alexander IV (son of Alexander the Great)

Philip means "friend of horses"
Aelxander means "defender of men", also a title of goddess Hera (wife of Zeus)
Persephone means "destroyer of light", from the mythical goddess of the underworld

	07-09-2005 16:03									#165
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oh, and "macedonian" derives from the Doric "makednós", meaning "tall"

and argead from "argos" meaning "shining"

	07-09-2005 16:04									#166
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oh oh, a last one!

"dynasty" is from "dynastis", meaning "ruler"

	07-09-2005 16:16									#167
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To Markos for ponying up some names. I too say the big man there is Philip II. But I still don't think he's a Greek.

And by the way, I think you missed a few words. Surely "symbol" is greek - meaning a mark or token.

	07-09-2005 16:23									#168
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quote: Surely "symbol" is greek - meaning a mark or token

from syn- "together" + stem of ballein "to throw."

	07-09-2005 16:28									#169
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and given the chance....



look mom, no macedonians existed in 1923!

	07-09-2005 16:29									#170
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We may use Greek words, but I bet you've got a McDonalds in Thessaloniki.

quote: Americans Win! You have acheived a Cultural Victory.

	07-09-2005 16:42									#171
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quote: We may use Greek words, but I bet you've got a McDonalds in Thessaloniki.

we had two. now we have one and the other will probably close soon, cause we prefer the local Goody's chain (better materials, service, menu)

so basically we stole from you the Burger technology and has rejected your cultural ifluence

btw, Thessaloniki

quote: The city was founded around 315 BC by Cassander, the King of Macedon, on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma and 26 other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonica, who was also the sister of Alexander the Great. She gained her name from her father, Philip II of Macedon, to commemorate her birth on the day of his gaining a victory (nike) over the Thessalians (in Greek).

	07-09-2005 17:49									#172
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG look mom, no macedonians existed in 1923!

Just because you assimiliated them doesn't mean there never were Macedonians seperate from Greeks. They clearly existed seperately at one point. As for what modern Macedonians consider themselves to be ethnically, I don't know. I should have asked that of our exchange student.

I don't really know much about the reasons the modern state (which, by the way, our government recognizes as the Republic of Macedonia) chose its particular name, but you know, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

	07-09-2005 17:54									#173
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quote: Just because you assimiliated them doesn't mean there never were Macedonians seperate from Greeks.

if you look again at the map, the area of fyrom is in the bulgarian area, not the greek one

	07-09-2005 18:31									#174
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I don't really know much about the reasons the modern state (which, by the way, our government recognizes as the Republic of Macedonia) chose its particular name, but you know, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Newly independent states will sometimes choose a historically prestigious name, even if they're not directly related to it. For example, Western Africa saw the prominence of the empire of Ghana for a very long time. It was located in today's Mauritania. When the modern state of Ghana was founded, it took the prestigious name despite having nothing in common with the old empire. Mali is also a "feelgood" name, though today's Mali had much more in common with the old Mali empire than today's Ghana with its namesake.

	07-09-2005 22:05									#175
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG look mom, no macedonians existed in 1923!

Thinking about how nations form, and when we can consider some group a nation, I've reached the conclusion that the only definition that makes sense and is fair is: once people feel they are a nation, they are.

Other definitions aren't adequate because there are many examples of nations on Earth which are separate, yet share the language, culture and even much of history with another nation.

Such is the case with Macedonians. We can speculate that had they ended up in Bulgaria a hundred or more years ago, they would have ended up feeling Bulgarian, but that is for all intentions and purposes irrelevant.

Modern nationalism was maybe not literally invented by the French Revolution in 1789., but it is widely considered that that is the event that gave it momentum. So *all* modern nations have been formed in the last 200 years, which is a ridiculously short amount of time in the span of human history.

That some nations had their "national revival" formation&articulation movements in 1820ies (Greece, Croatia...) and some 1900ies, and some even after 1945. (Austrians, Bosniaks...) is not that big deal and certainly doesn't make any nation more important, superior or more entitled to something than another. Also goes for territorial independance. The earlier the better, but the old nation-states don't have more rights than new.

Which is why I consider disputing Macedonian claims to originality and right to consider themselves not-Bulgarians ridiculous. If I were a Macedonian, I would also find them offensive.

	07-09-2005 22:07									#176
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That's all nice and fine. But Macedonia is taken. Choose another.

	07-09-2005 22:17									#177
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Basically, Greeks are bashing Macedonia on three accounts: (1.) they are a fake wannabe nation, (2.) they have no history of their own and are stealing ours, (3.) they have teritorial ambitions in nothern Greece.

I have written about (1.) in the above post.

I have already elaborated my stance on territorial ambitions of nations (2.) in the thread "Greater [insert country]". These are indeed not pleasant, but need to be evaluated for how real the threat is. Going beserk just because your neighbour wants a piece of your land is over the top, especially if the neighbour is in a kind of nation-state puberty in relation to you (fiery and noisy, but young, small and dependant).

As for squabbles about history (3.) and who inherits the glory of Alexander... I simply don't understand how someone can get so worked up about that so I don't know what to say. It all seems very silly to me. I'm trying to imagine a part of Bosnia going independant and calling themselves "Dalmatia" (a Croatian province). Would I care? I don't think I would

	07-09-2005 22:19									#178
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1. territorial ambitions.

This is the balkans.

2. Stealing history.
Well that just won't do. It's ahuge insult to macedonians,

3. that skpjians are a fake nation.
noone said that. noone is opposed to its existance (that can be subverted in a matter of days btw)

	07-09-2005 22:21									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder That's all nice and fine. But Macedonia is taken. Choose another.

I always defend the weak and those who can't defend themselves :saint:

	07-09-2005 22:23									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder 3. that skpjians are a fake nation. noone said that.

True. MarkG just noted how they didn't exist in 1923. and I kind of read between the lines, but there is that issue floating around.