04-09-2005 19:14									#31
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GTA is not going to send you on a killing spree, video games don't turn you into killers.

Crappy parents, usually turn you into serial killers.

A game where you play the role of a thief and a murderer and they glorify and try to justify his actions amoung his peers as socially acceptable, *IS* harmfull for impressionable children.

	04-09-2005 19:16									#32
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The partially uncovered breast of Michael Jackon's sister is clearly an even greater threat to the U.S.A. .


And I know how deadly Gustave Courbet can be to impressionable minds on Apolyton.

	04-09-2005 19:26									#33
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Promoting violence and theft as an acceptable social norm, is worse then nudity.

I'm not a prude and I am not making this argument from a religious stance. The morality of nudity is subjective.

Its not just that you SEE violence and theft, that is NOTHING new heh. In GTA 2 you stole a bus, killed the driver, then filled it up with passengers and drove it to the hotdog factory-you watched the tourists get out and then, scream as they were shreded.

They made no attempt to make this seem real, and no attempt to make it seem acceptable.


San Andreas tries to promote violence and theft as a perfectly acceptable social norm in a REALISTIC way NO other game i've ever played has and as you can imagine i've played alot of games in the 15 years i've owned computers.

	04-09-2005 19:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Promoting violence and theft as an acceptable social norm, is worse then nudity. I'm not a prude and I am not making this argument from a religious stance. The morality of nudity is subjective. Its not just that you SEE violence and theft, that is NOTHING new heh. In GTA 2 you stole a bus, killed the driver, then filled it up with passengers and drove it to the hotdog factory-you watched the tourists get out and then, scream as they were shreded. They made no attempt to make this seem real, and no attempt to make it seem acceptable. San Andreas tries to promote violence and theft as a perfectly acceptable social norm in a REALISTIC way NO other game i've ever played has and as you can imagine i've played alot of games in the 15 years i've owned computers.

You are absolutely wrong. No where in any GTA games do I see "Go steal cars in real life!"

Your premise is false. And you are spreading blatant lies.

And UR. The so-called "research" is scetchy at best. It usually involves studies where kids play video games and fill out "mood charts" where they ask you stupid questions like "do you feel violent"?

And their conclusions are usually worded in the following way, "Playing violent video games non-stop for 15 years may or may not lead to a possible increase in impulsive behavior.

It's flimsy. And quite frankly, worthy of the label, "JUNK SCIENCE".

	04-09-2005 19:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Promoting violence and theft as an acceptable social norm, is worse then nudity.

So no games based on American history then ?

Bang goes 'How The West Was Won' or 'How The South Was Carpetbagged' or 'How We Got Puerto Rico' .


Seriously though, I do agree with you up to a point- if a game sets out to glorify random acts of violence and theft in a context-less situation, especially in a concentrated form (a sole player, of 'impressionable' age, engaged in a frequently solitary activity) then it must exert some kind of influence, especially in the absence of any other models of acceptable social behaviour.

	04-09-2005 23:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion GTA preparing people to deal with floods

	04-09-2005 23:43									#37
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Frankly, the whole rating system is a f*cking joke. Most parents as far as I know don't pay attention to the ratings. Also, violence per se isn't what is bad. It is the CONTEXT of the violence. GTA is bad not because of the violence, it is bad because it glorifies it for personal gain (as opposed to say, a WW2 FPS where you are shooting Nazi scum).

	04-09-2005 23:45									#38
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And in Doom you kill the demons of Hell .

	05-09-2005 00:14									#39
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And what's wrong with that, heathen?!

	05-09-2005 01:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sava one of the greatest games ever made too bad they didn't have multiplayer GTA doesn't promote anything... it's a game...

Technically it does have multiplayer, but it REALLY sucks because it was more of an afterthought that they just shoved in to make the game "cooler" and probably so they could generate pre game hype by dropping the word "multi player".

	05-09-2005 01:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You know, I am sh*t out of other reasons to rob a convenience store...

I'd love to see you try to rob a convenience store. After the clerks had finished laughing themselves to death, you could make away with everything.

	05-09-2005 02:11									#42
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Not having played the game, may I ask how the game portrays the actions concerned as moral?

	05-09-2005 02:27									#43
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Without going into too much detail, one of the plot arcs concerns clearing crack cocaine off of the streets, which the protagonist seems to do for moral reasons

	05-09-2005 02:36									#44
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quote: humans being in the tens of thousands if not higher.

I see you never played civ.

	05-09-2005 03:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'd love to see you try to rob a convenience store. After the clerks had finished laughing themselves to death, you could make away with everything.

You're an unnecessarily vicious little tw*t, aren't you?

	05-09-2005 03:01									#46
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don't worry, Richard, if memory serves me right, Aggie over here isn't exactly Mike Tyson, either.

	05-09-2005 03:04									#47
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"Give me all your motherf**king money, or I'll quote Wittgenstein at you!"

	05-09-2005 03:09									#48
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Seriously though, I do agree with you up to a point- if a game sets out to glorify random acts of violence and theft in a context-less situation, especially in a concentrated form (a sole player, of 'impressionable' age, engaged in a frequently solitary activity) then it must exert some kind of influence, especially in the absence of any other models of acceptable social behaviour.

	05-09-2005 03:14									#49
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but "some" is a very general term...

it could make a kid 0.00001% more likely to commit a crime...

the fact is, if video games were having a profound negative effect on children, there'd be mass chaos and violence... but violent crime has been going down in America...

so it's a non-issue...

and frankly... things like poverty, ignorance, and bigotry are much worse things to worry about than "violent video games"

	05-09-2005 03:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison "Give me all your motherf**king money, or I'll quote Wittgenstein at you!"

Here!

	05-09-2005 04:39									#51
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@che: So that's what "cracker messiah" means? I'd heard the phrase couple times, and assumed it was about crack (the drug).

	05-09-2005 04:43									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @che: So that's what "cracker messiah" means? I'd heard the phrase couple times, and assumed it was about crack (the drug).

cracker is a derogatory term for white people... sort of like the equivalent of the n word... nig***

	05-09-2005 09:12									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava but "some" is a very general term... it could make a kid 0.00001% more likely to commit a crime... the fact is, if video games were having a profound negative effect on children, there'd be mass chaos and violence... but violent crime has been going down in America... so it's a non-issue... and frankly... things like poverty, ignorance, and bigotry are much worse things to worry about than "violent video games"

Again I have made no claim this will turn a child into a rapist.

In a crappy situation with crappy parents however, this could definatley help push a kid over.

	05-09-2005 09:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Again I have made no claim this will turn a child into a rapist. In a crappy situation with crappy parents however, this could definatley help push a kid over.

it's like feeding a humpback whale a teaspoon of sugar

	05-09-2005 09:26									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You are absolutely wrong. No where in any GTA games do I see "Go steal cars in real life!" Your premise is false. And you are spreading blatant lies. And UR. The so-called "research" is scetchy at best. It usually involves studies where kids play video games and fill out "mood charts" where they ask you stupid questions like "do you feel violent"? And their conclusions are usually worded in the following way, "Playing violent video games non-stop for 15 years may or may not lead to a possible increase in impulsive behavior. It's flimsy. And quite frankly, worthy of the label, "JUNK SCIENCE".

Wow.

I'm giving a big thumbs up to Sava.

	05-09-2005 09:36									#57
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Certain parents should wear a flaming red label on their foreheads clearly warning of the danger they constitute to their unfortunate kids. I swear to God, sometimes I'm tempted to think that having kids ought to be a privilege you have to earn, rather than a natural right.

On topic, if a video game like the one discussed here is more suited for adults than kids, it's the freaking responsibility of the parents to keep it away from their offspring. Take an interest in their kids and lay down the law if that's what's required.

Note that this of course won't work, but at least I feel better now.

	05-09-2005 10:23									#58
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Irresponsible, greedy and evil people are the #1 problem to wars, but games like Civilization and Risk don't help. I'm not suggesting banning Civilization or Risk, just they promote war and genocide in impressionable minds where as trying to live peacefully in those games will often get you and your civilization killed.

quote: GTA is bad not because of the violence, it is bad because it glorifies it for personal gain

Lots of movies and games (like Civ) glorify violence with it leading to personal gain.

quote: It's not that simple. Sociological studies have shown that TV shows (and by extension, video games) have definite impacts on how people see things.

GTA also involves this ficitional protagonist dying and being arrested for his actions. If a kid believes all the other parts of the game they couldn't ignore this. Maybe GTA showing the player dying on the screen impacts an impressionable mind to realize the same consequence could happen to them for doing such actions?

quote: In a crappy situation with crappy parents however, this could definatley help push a kid over.

Or it could turn the kid into a computer game nerd wasting tons of hours playing computer games rather than have the kid bored hanging out on the streets with questionable crowds.

	05-09-2005 14:20									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava it's like feeding a humpback whale a teaspoon of sugar

I don't believe it is.

If a child grows up on the margins, then a game which is designed to be extremely attractive, and can be played by one person for hours at a time, and which shows violence against the person and property glorified, and theft rewarded, must exert a degree of influence on an impressionable child.

If there is no other model of more acceptable behaviour being inculcated or demonstrated, then how does that child learn which is better ?

The behaviour from their frequently solitary games, where to succeed you are more violent, or more rapacious than your opponent ?

Or a more socially acceptable, less predatory form of behaviour ?

I suggest instead of your model of a not quite diabetic cetacean, a rat being fed endorphins instead.

	05-09-2005 14:35									#60
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Ofc there is an effect! Humans are designed to receive inputs, work with them and produce an output. So every input you receive and pay attention to gets processed. Every processing changes something and if you take into account the "petting for behavior that is acceptable" and "punishing for behavior that is unacceptable" type of learning (which is very basic and IMO present in all thinking animals), you'd come to the conclusion that a game like GTA has a negative effect in such that it is opposite of what society teaches.

OFC, we know we have to differ between persons on which this has a smaller effect than on others, but since we cannot decide that on an individual by individual basis, because we do not have the tools to create any measurement, we must strive to find an acceptable barrier in terms of ages as we can assume that the longer we live the less effect an input has on us.
In some cases this is unfair, in some cases this is fair. Ideally we'd have the parents who could decide, but I think they'd need help from rating organizations and such and also need to exert control over their children, which they in turn would have to follow. This still doesn't guarantee to be totally fair and since the control of the parents _probably_ breeds more negative emotional consequences than that of a impersonal greater authority, I think it's better to let them handle it. For now.